Talk:Kashmir Restaurant

BioShock 2 Cutscene Image
There seems to be this edit war going on whether or not to include this image from the BioShock 2 opening cutscene. Evans0305 and I believe it depicts the Kashmir Restaurant whereas Unownshipper and User 75.137.146.232 believe it only depicts the Adonis Luxury Resort and not the Kashmir. I'm the first to post here, so let me make my point:

Unownshipper pointed out correctly that the neon signs in the cutscene place the area within the Luxury Resort. However, the layout, color and furnishings in the room are reminescent of the Kashmir and the Footlight Theater. Furthermore, most of the patrons are wearing masks, and we know the Masquerade Ball took place at the Kashmir just before the 1958 New Year's Eve Riots (which also means that Delta likely died moments before the riots took place).

My idea is that the Kashmir and the Adonis Resort are both part of the same area, i.e. the Welcome Center, which is plausible since most passageways in both locations are blocked when the player navigates through them. It'd also fit with the upper-class venue theme common to both. What do you guys think? --Willbachbakal 14:53, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say that's plausible; unlike the other areas of Bioshock 2 (such as Pauper's Drop and Siren Alley), Adonis does seem to be more "upper class" (like the areas of the first game, examples being Fort Frolic and the Kashmir Restaurant, as well as Arcadia). The name itself is even Adonis Luxury Resort. Heck, there's even an Audio Diary by Andrew Ryan himself there. Key of Destiny 15:09, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I get that there's a lot of flak for this image because it's located in Adonis, but there's a lot of connectivity that shows that not only was this scene meant to be the Kashmir, but that it was meant to be near and above the Adonis Luxury Resort:


 * Both Paulio and Gamesarchivist found that there was a different prelude to BioShock 2 that was more likely removed or altered, but still has its loading screens and sound files in the game (such as the radio broadcast message of the New Year's eve riots, and the recycled but unused Brenda and Charlie conversations from BS1). The screens show the pre-civil war locations of The Welcome Center, The Kashmir Restaurant, and the Transit Hub:

This prelude more likely relates to Jordan Thomas' original "Sea of Dreams" take on the game, which in one of its concept ideas, players were suppose to see a prewar Rapture through dream-like flashbacks, almost like the "ghosts" in BS1, but played more like the Little Sister's vision in the Outer Persephone level. This feature, along with other ideas, was edited from most of the game because they wouldn't allow for the Player to do anything but watch the events happen. Its more likely that since the Adonis level was listed as "Prelude-2", it could have meant either the Adonis was a 2nd prelude to the game, or there was a 2nd version of the prelude, or the video could have been meant to be a playable area leading to Adonis (much like BS1's prelude plane scene that had it as a level, and showed the passengers in front were just Breadwinners as fodder models).


 * Even though BioShock 2 had an altered version on some of BS1's areas, the Multiplayer level of the Kashmir shows that it is a possible sub-extension adjacent of the Kashmir from the first game, as shown by the Atlas Statue seen outside of the Silk Lounge (which in BS1, you can see there's a building facing next to that Kashmir Restaurant area). It also shares a lot of the same colors and patterns of what was seen in the video, and could also explain the additional signs near the area for the Adonis and Atlantic Express.
 * There was a similar case when Fort Frolic was originally meant as the entrance to Dionysis Park, so that could be the case with editing the Kashmir and Adonis.


 * Like Willbachbakal mentioned, the area of the Kashmir in the first game has blocked additional passageways that could go around or to the Adonis and/or the Kashmir locations. There's a 2nd floor below the Kashmir Restaurant that players can see a Toasty Splicer knocking at a door (which one of those doors could be suggested as the Adonis), and the added tunnels, which get blown apart by Jack's plane tail, show that there's a different route to the Adonis and the Kashmir ( or the Kashmir's 2nd building, which also explains the Multiplayer's version of the Kashmir having Securis doors). Speaking of which...


 * Jack's plane tail can be seen near the Adonis Luxury Resort, so why would that be there in BS2, especially specifically near that area? Evans0305 03:32, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the plane tail is easily explained away; if the Adonis Resort is, in fact, located in the Welcome Center, then it could have simply floated there somehow after the entire tunnel collapsed (the rapidly-flooding tunnel you have to cross through in the beginning of the first game). I agree; there were numerous blocked passages and doors throughout the first game; the door located on the incaccessible level (due to the elevator exploding and catching fire) could have easily led to the Adonis Resort. There's also a ton of wreckage blocking the other upward staircase in the Transit Hub, rendering that area unexplorable. Key of Destiny 13:50, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, since this discussion has mostly been devoted to arguments for why this could be the Kashmir, I'll play Devil's Advocate for why it almost certainly is not. First, let us consider all of the signs suggesting that the area is the Adonis Luxury Resort: the plaquard to the right of the Little Sister vent, the neon marquis outside the row of windows in the hall, and the sign above the staircase in the Transit Hub where Delta fights the Splicers (visible with high resolution versions). I find it highly unlikely that Delta would be in the Adonis to start out with, enter the Welcome Center by going into the Kashmir, and then be back in the Adonis by entering the Transit Hub.

Second, the restaurant where this party takes place doesn't match the architecture of the Kashmir from the first game. By that I mean that things are not arranged in the same spots they were in the original. For example, Delta goes through a door, enters the space, and is facing the stage. That door would have had to be in the space where the bar is in the BS1 Kashmir Restraurant, but there is no door there. Additionally, the hallway next to the stage is a long, open hall, but in the first game, there was a door and a sign for the Footlight Theater overhead. Lastly, in the Transit Hub, instead of the glass partition which surrounded the upper level, there is a normal railing which Delta leaps over to attack his enemies.

It's been mentioned that this space and the Kashmir have similar decor (especially because of the stage), but that doesn't mean they are the same. Also, the Masquerade Ball was celebrated all over Rapture, not just in the Kashmir. I'm willing to conceed the idea that this area is a redesign from the Kashmir from the Prelude, but in its final form it's a seperate place.

I submit that this is not the Kashmir Restaurant, but rather is some other restaurant or lounge in the Adonis Resort; possibly an unseen adjoining part of Demeter's Banquet Hall.

Unownshipper 03:29, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with all of Unownshipper's points above. We have lots of direct evidence that the cinematic took place in the Adonis, but we only have speculation that the Adonis Luxury Resort and Welcome Center were connected. The location of the Apollo Air plane tail makes a connection seem highly probable, but we don't know for sure. Therefore, I suggest just leaving the cinematic image out of this article. One image is really not a big deal anyway. ~Gardimuer   { ʈalk } 04:03, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd be inclined to agree, but I still think there's a simple way to verify this. The New Year's Eve Riots article indicates the Kashmir hosted the Masquerade Ball. Now, if the Kashmir was the only place to have done so, then the above image would represent the Kashmir without any doubt. However, if the Kashmir was only one of several venues to host the Ball, then the image shouldn't be added. --Willbachbakal 12:54, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I always figured that New Years Eve parties were celebrated in many places throughout Rapture, and masks were popular New Years attire that year, similar to how themed hats and glasses are worn in different cities all over the world on New Years in real life. The Kashmir restaurant was the main venue for the high-class New Years ball, but masks are so prevalent among the Splicer population in-game that they must have been very common, even for revelers who didn't attend the party at the Kashmir. ~Gardimuer   { ʈalk } 16:13, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I was surfing the web when I came upon this image. From the poster's caption, this was a screenshot during the installation process of Bioshock 2. KashmirInstallScreenshot.jpg Tricksteroffools (talk) 21:40, May 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * Can you include the link?


 * Unownshipper (talk) 21:43, May 30, 2014 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, this is the loading screen for the installation for BioShock 2 on PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. I compliantly forgot about this. --Shacob (talk) 21:49, May 30, 2014 (UTC)

Guests
A valid point Unownshipper, the brodcast is made by the devlipers andwas found on files in the game,  that should make it canon. But then again I dont see Langford and Suchong as "Party People" but the Steve Barker one is highly belivable.

untill we figure this out I will put the list here:

Known guests at the 1959 Masquerade Ball

 * Anna Culpepper
 * Brigid Tenenbaum
 * Daniel Wales
 * Diane McClintock
 * J.S. Steinman
 * Julie Langford
 * Silas Cobb
 * Simon Wales
 * Steve Barker
 * Yi Suchong

Shacob (talk) 21:18, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

Inside of the BaS Restaurant
could someone use concole command and go out in the ocean and take o close up photo of what we can see from the inside of the restaurant or find the texture or something?

Shacob (talk) 20:53, February 13, 2014 (UTC) 23:29, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

Merely the Entrance

 * Mind_the_Gap.png

BS1 part looks like it is only the entryway/waiting area to the Main Restaurant, that upper section with  reservation desk, lower with a 'Cocktail Lounge' with very small 'bar' and kitchen and a 'Dancing' performance stage. Ive seen McDonalds with more table space than there, and much is also taken up by the big Atlas Statue. The blocked doorway labeled Foot Light Theater, if you use the cheats, has a gap between doors on far side where you could make a left turn and head up into the main Restaurant (something more like the MultiPlayer level). Ignore/discount the outside views as they were largely low priority filler. The immediate building around the 'Lounge' curved window are not there on the BaS1 view (nor the rocks and seabed in its immediate vicinity outside the lower floor). Most of the outside views are pretty dodgy and should not be relied on as evidence.


 * Path_to_Elsewhere.png


 * That's a perfectly fine theory (I think the skybox matches up with it actually), but there's no way to prove it. As for the McDonalds you visited, I'm sure it was bigger than the Kashmir, but that's a modern building and in Rapture space comes at a premium.


 * I'm not fully behind the idea that the backgrounds from game 1 don't matter. You know someone put effort into all the details in the game like the backgrounds.


 * Personally, I'd like it if the game designers paid attention to some of the discussions on sites like this and (in the next BAS or some other sequel that returns to Rapture) they would connect the Bio1 Kashmir with the KRMM exactly the way you indicated. Until that time, the Bio1 Kashmir is canon and the multiplayer map is a redesign like all the other multi maps.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 22:39, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * I like the exteriors too (though the artistic license gets a bit out of hand - dig those 60+ story skyscrapers) but they are caricatures.   Look (in BS1) directly out past the Kashmirs Atlas statue and less than 10 feet away is a building facade.  The other two sides (around that semicircle window) with some gaps likewise have tall buidlings directly adjacent (and rocks).  Compare that to the BaS1 view from main/market street where it sits all high and lonesome.   Its not a big deal as they also seem to have changed the 'space is at a premium' aspect a bit likewise to make it airy like Columbia.  I dont hold them to any accuracy as even just within BS1 or BS2 they recycle/reuse the skybox views (sometimes replicating the exact background texture (known as a skybox/skydome in the gaming industry) scene 4 times around the compass views within a building)

The Bomb


ones again Kashmir........

should we add the bomb to the history section. It was a really big part of the attack. not many people in the game refer the attack as an attack, but as an bombing. I just listened to the Audio diary by Diane MacClintock: New Year's Eve Alone, and the attack starts with a explosion. armed with guns, explosives and burst into.... " how do you run in with explosives? its not like they had time to wire bombs or shoot rockets of some sort in the restaurant, and you don't hear any other explosions in the audio diary then the one that cuts Diane off.

Reference to the bomb.


 * Diane McClintock  : New Year's Eve Alone :Silly enough to fall in love with Andrew Ryan, silly enough to... EXPLOSION


 * Grace Holloway : Closing the Limbo Room : "down the Limbo. Bomb goes off in that fancy place uptown, and everybody panics..."
 * This copy of Rapture Tribune:
 * Concept art for BioShock 2: (all do, its not sure if this is canon but they show the explosion)

as you can see it was the bomb that was the main focus of the attack...

I made this because someone didn't think the bomb was necessary to add in the page

--Shacob (talk) 23:22, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree, I know this was an area of contention before, but I think there's more than enough information to suggest a pre-orchestrated bombing effort. Where the bombs were planted (I still think one was set up in the Atlas statue) is not of importance so long as we add the details to the page.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 08:04, February 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * I also believe it was in the atlas statue, you can clearly see that it was blown up from the inside. btw do we have any evidence that the restaurant was held open after the attack? I don't see how it could manage to stay open after an attack like that, and there's still decoration from the new years eve party, they would have taken them down after the party in normal cases?

--Shacob (talk) 14:52, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Remember the Kashmir Incident was only the start of the "Civil War" and Jack doesnt show up until  at least a year later. Also the 'bomb' obviously in BS1 didnt do that much damage (strong ones blow things -even metal- to bits, and Diane MacClintock was only like 25 feet away). Bomb blasts also used as a distraction in an attack, generating alot of confusion while the people with guns shoot up the place, easier while the people inside are still stunned.

The bomb mess could be cleaned up and some business resume - the economy didnt instantly come to a stop. Remember the announcements telling people to go out and shop, goto Arcadia, and to the ball games to 'not let the bandits win' ... The kitchen in the BS1 'Lounge' area is not that large to operate in a lesser capacity and looked like it had seen recent use. If the BS2 MultiPlayer if that was the main restaurant then that also has a large hole blown in the floor between the kitchen and Lounge upstairs.pix

That Atlas statue also possibly could have been blown up later by Atlas's thugs in an act of terrorism. We dont exactly have the Jan  1 Newspaper stating that "The Atlas Statue in the Kashmir Restaurant was blown up in the attack on New Years Eve". An awful lot of things in the game(s) are vague on details.

75.36.138.22 20:05, March 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * A huge number of factors effect how much damage a bomb does. How large was it? What were the quality of the explosives? How exactly was it positioned? Did it have anything attached to it to direct the blast (a shaped charge)? You can't know how much or how little damage it did unless you had WAY more information. All that is known is the damage to the statue, the upper floor railing, and other parts of the restraunt. I don't doubt that the bomb was mainly meant for disorientation, but clearly there was some collateral damage that couldn't have been done by a simple firearm. Also, you don't know for certain where Diane was.


 * Most of these things are meant to be implied. It's stiff, self-conscious, and unnatural to have something explained in that much detail (it's spoon-feeding the plot to the player). Would you have preferred if Jack walks into Rapture and trips over an encyclopedia that summarizes every little detail of what happened in the past year or would you like to piece together the clues like an archaeolgist? The latter is more intriguing and more realistic.


 * You're assuming that the bomb happened and people immediately went back to the Kashmir? Think of Pearl Harbor or 9/11. People need a time to grieve, Rapture Security probably wanted time to sift through the rubble for clues, citizens would have been unlikely to want to return to the Kashmir considering how many of their friends and neighbors were killed there. Also, you're still basing this off the assumption that the Multiplayer Kashmir is canon.


 * Why would Atlas' followers blow up the Atlas statue after the New Year's attack? What possible purpose could that serve? Even as a show of force it seems incredibly unlikely and like a wast of effort and supplies, especially if the business had closed by then.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 23:12, March 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * "You can't know how much or how little damage it did unless you had WAY more information"
 * You can know plenty by what you (Jack) see there.  You dont have to be CSI and track every fragment to see it broke the statue, but wasnt big enough to destroy the windows or burn all the funiture or turn the people who were supposedly there into hamburger.


 * "You're assuming that the bomb happened and people immediately went back to the Kashmir?"
 * Months/a Year is 'immediately' ? We/Jack see it by BS1 time in 1960.  The place was relatively Intact and Brenda seems to have still been around, so why shouldnt she resume operating it.  We see so little of Rapture and likely anyone half normal and not out for the 1000ADAM Bounty is running the opposite direction from the madman who has come to Rapture and is shooting up the place.   Ryan himself may have had operation there resume to show the citizens that the terrorists were not going to win.


 * "it's spoon-feeding the plot to the player"
 * You mean like the contrived information sequence you are exposed to make Ryan out the evil tyrant and Atlas your friend?   Imagine if you had heard the Diana McClintock finding Fontaine Audio Diary (the one before she was likely murdered)  as the third one you found in the game.
 * Archeologists also often dont piece things together and sometimes it takes decades to decode what has been found long before.


 * "you're still basing this off the assumption that the Multiplayer Kashmir is canon"
 * Why not?, its actually in-game. (theres a trope for game addons appending additional info and the issue of it being canon or not).  The one in Bioshock 1 is a bit rinky-dink to be the  great Kashmir Restaurant - a bit puny for the 'Movers and Shakers' of Rapture to be at for their big party.  Might as well have held it at Demeter's.  The Multiplayer venue is a bit more like what would be expected for such a party.


 * "Why would Atlas' followers blow up the Atlas statue after the New Year's attack"
 * Terrorists blow up things as symbolic acts all the time.  Add ADAM insanity into the mix.  Atlas wants to ruin the economy and make people too scared to fight him.  SO the question should be "Why NOT blow up the Atlas Statue in the Kashmir?, particularly if that one was intact still and a place citizens still congregated.
 * "Un-signatured guest"


 * Come on, you know that the windows and exterior walls are super think/reinforced to withstand the ocean pressure. A bomb could easily have damaged the interior without causing damage to the building. Once again, a shaped charge could have directed the blast in one direction (inward towards the reception dsk) and caused the damage seen without blasting the windows (the opposite direction).


 * What do you mean by relatively intect? The place is a mess (little, if any, clean up had occurred by 1960). Brenda's presence indicates nothing except that she survived the Civil War and sought refuge in her former place of work. Ryan can encourage people to resume their normal lives via the P.A. announcements, but that doesn't mean they will (especially if they're afraid of repeat attacks at the restraunt).


 * You find it contrived, I do not (either way, it doesn't effect the current issue we're discussing). Ryan had always feared intrusion by CIA or KGB, so his response seems mostly in character for him. Likewise, Atlas' "Go to Neptune's Bounty" plea would seem perfectly natural if you were thrust into this scary situation like Jack must have been. "Imagine if you had heard the Diana McClintock finding Fontaine Audio Diary"... I'm not going to entertain "What if" questions right here. They're a fun thought exercise, but don't change this current discussion.


 * Why not? Because no one has asserted that ALL the other BioShock 2 Multiplayer Locations are canon, too. It's all or nothting (we can't just pick and choose what levels are real from individual games) and the other maps are clearly redesigns. As I've stated, the Kashmir is just a regular (if posh) place to party in Bio1; if becoems the place to be in Bio2 when a different set of designers were working on it. If that answer doesn't satisfy you, then maybe the Kashmir was chosen over Demeter's BECAUSE it was more intimate (ie, more exclusive) than other places. Here, only a small number of elite (the true creme de la creme) could gain entry while the social climbers were shut out.


 * It only works as a symbolic act if the venue is still active, and this place looks like it hasn't been in operation since New Years. Otherwise it's a waste of material and manpower that could be used fighting your enemies. If they blew it up and no one was there to notice it, then congratulations, you've wasted a bomb. I'm not buying it.


 * Respectfully, Unownshipper (talk) 22:01, March 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * First of all, please don't bring up Bioshock 2 multiplayer Kashmir again... Me and Unownshiper came in to a conclusion that we will not add the "possibility" to the Kashmir instead we added it to the talk page of Bioshock 2 Multiplayers Kashmir there you can also see the whole argument.


 * Now for the bomb and the open times: Idle Thumbs had a broadcast with designer JP LeBreton that made a walk through of BioShock with commentary. off course he goes through the Kashmir and comments on many things and about the bomb:  he stands in front of the Atlas statue on the second floor and talks about the attack a bit and at the exact moment when he say "where a terrorist bomb exploded" he  points to the hole in the statue and later he says "in Kashmir the part with the blown up statue"


 * then he goes to the bottom floor and comments on the blocked door that leads to the Footlight was supposed to have a lot more bodies do to that during the attack the guest panics and ran to the doors at the same time trampling each other but they didn't include it doe to performers reasons. now if that's not enough proof, The thing that seals it is the new years eve decoration for 1959! if the restaurant was open they would have taken away the decoration.

check the videos out: http://www.twitch.tv/idlethumbs/b/322438377

--Shacob (talk) 19:48, March 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Something of a fallacy there Shacob. What you describe suggests that the bombing occurred and, but does not prove that it occurred during the attack. Those New Years decorations were still around in 1960 and there would have been many casualties to the attack whether the bomb happened then or not. There's no reason to include such a detail as part of the attack. Certainly you can mention it as something that happened at some point, but saying it started the attack is too much speculation. The good news is that Burial at Sea may give us some clarity on this matter (Though if the attack directly proceeds after Fontaine's escape from the department store, a pre-placed bomb seems unlikely. 150.209.41.32 02:47, March 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Come to any conclusion you want but this is a Talk page where people can bring up whatever associated info they want, since THIS text isnt being added to the main pages.   What developers say after the fact and whats in the game is actually in a subcategory of 'canon' anyway.  Its all vague (even that dev's video statements are lacking clear detail/statement about what happened at the Incident)


 * Bodies?  Bomb goes off (boom) loud noise and concussion, even from another room, splicers running everywhere slaughtering people, mass confusion....  (and saying they were supposed to be there is intent but not exactly 'canon'.  If we went with 'intent' there would be an awful lot more stuff in the game that was NEVER included).


 * Oh and your bringing up doubly indirect DLC content ... THAT is supposed to be evidence YOU think is relevant ?   Anyway  there are so many possibilities available with little actual content to narrow down the actual events....
 * 75.36.140.136 03:17, March 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well user 150.209.41.32,  I didn't think I have'd to say it but before he says "where a terrorist bomb exploded"  he says: "Its the new years party where a terrorist bomb exploded". 'I rest my case.


 * and for you user: 75.36.140.13, I am sorry if what i said was misleading, I meant you can go and talk on the Bioshock 2 multiplayer Kashmir about the other Area possibility. Burial at Sea is in fact canon everything that happens here is what happened before Bioshock . it has been stated several times by Ken Levine himself.
 * Shacob (talk) 15:45, March 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * More conclusive if he said ""Its the new years party where a terrorist bomb exploded, THERE" ...


 * Look at website  :   tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main     and enter 'Canon' into search and you might be suprised all the variations of 'canon' there are,  including what "after the fact" comments by one of the priimary authors/spokesman counts as, AND later add-ons.   (that is actually a very interesting site with a whole section on "Bioshock" )
 * "un-signed user"




 * well.... I gues I will put his whole sentence this time to avoid these kind off arguments I will put the important sections in the "bold" font. So when hes inside the Kashmir he says: "so this is ofcouse the Kashmir, I promise that the density of landmarks and call outs will lesson as time goes on but there's obviously significant stuff. This is probably one of the defining images of BioShock here" (While looking at the Statue and 1959 sign from the secend floor) "because, you know, Its the new years party where A  terrorist bomb exploded here at the Kashmir killing a bunch of aristocrats and this was really the night when everything started to go down the tubes in Rapture......."
 * Shacob (talk) 19:09, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Open For Business
Seperated from the above discussion on April 16, 2014

Okey I need to bring up the fact again that there's no way that the restaurant remained open! There's still decoration from new years eve! if they staid open they would have removed them after the party! Who would want to go to a restaurant after such a incident and be reminded by the attack by looking around and seeing "Happy 1959"?? Shacob (talk) 05:37, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * But then 'operate' in normal conditions is not the same as 'operate' under odd/strained/war conditions (like after the 'incident' people probably didnt party there any more and they might never even bother to clean up the place), but still some people show up (furtively) to get food if its convenient.   Brenda and Charlie still seem to be there (out of habit?) and talking about 'Its My ADAM' so they are getting paid(?) somehow - possibly for continuing their service (those hungry fishermen from Neptunes Bounty who are continuing to work (and need to) to help feed Rapture...)   Who knows what kind of measures and arrangements were made during the emergency (Civil War...).  People still need to eat and that small kitchen still operating would be logical (else Brenda and Charlie are out of a job...)
 * 75.36.138.232 13:12, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * " "because, you know, Its the new years party where A  terrorist bomb exploded here at the Kashmir killing a bunch of aristocrats and this was really the night when everything started to go down the tubes in Rapture..."'''




 * Which largely then disagrees (original intent before later DLC revisionisms)  that Atlas really overtly did all that much before that point in time.  (organizing maybe, but actaul major violence - nada).
 * 75.36.138.232 13:16, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * ↑ What does this comment you just made have to do with anything? Unownshipper (talk) 01:22, April 17, 2014 (UTC)




 * That they wouldnt be having such a party in an exposed public place (and with with a grand declaration = the troubles are over ... from Ryan) if heineous murder was currently common on the streets of Rapture, being perpetrated by some revolutionaries (who have a thing for targetting the leaders of the 'establishment' to further their plan of seizing power.
 * The DLC alledges that Atlas was much further along/organized  than just someone scrambling to get away from Ryan's hunting down of Fontaine's old associates in crime.
 * The original story WAS that the incidents at Kashmir on New years Eve (and probably simultaneously elsewhere) was the overt acts that started the Civil War and was largely unexpected.  That being that there wasnt already alot of shooting up/blowing up/killing/maiming going on before that point.
 * (Its actually also a a reason why there would be no 'Protectors' yet, because there would be no 'Gathering' going on yet  - you need LARGE numbers of corpses to make that even viable, and a long time period where corpses  from violence were lying about for the Little Sisters to even be out, to then be menaced by addicted splicers, to then REQUIRE Big Daddies to 'protect them).


 * We had enough contradictions with the originlal  BS1/BS2 without the DLC throwing in a whole new phalanx of additional contradictions.




 * Of course people show up looking for food just like in any other place in Rapture, but I don't see chefs and other staff staying there, they got there own things to take care of. As we know, the civil war was insane (judging from Bioshock 2 Multiplayer) It would be dangerous to have such a place; Splicers would just kill the citizens that where trying to help and take food for themselves. And don't forget about the philosophy: every man for themselves, charity was looked down on. If any, areas such as Paupers Drop is more likely to have such a place.
 * Where would the get the food? when the halls of Rapture is turned in to a battle field and the bathysphere lock down, I don't see these people gathering food and taking them to another place and risking there lives for such a cause.
 * Shacob (talk) 18:33, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh My God, are we still on this!? There's NO indication that the Kashmir remained in service after the New Year's attack. Contributor 75.36.138.232, whom I just assume is User:Testxyz, I sincerely have to ask are you simply trolling? I don't see how you can rationalize the restraunt remaining open to the public after the event that occurred.


 * Your comment about Brenda and Charlie doesn't support anything.


 * So Brenda has ADAM, SO WHAT? Are you suggesting that this implies the restaurant is still open? Citizens weren't paid in ADAM, that was a cut concept. Or are you saying the business is open, she's being paid, and is using the money to buy ADAM? That's a ridiculously huge leap. The fact that she says "[she] earned it" means nothing! Maybe she just killed a BD and harvested a LS's ADAM.


 * How could it remain open in any fashion? With a war raging on do you honestly think they's manage to get food and cooking supllies to the kitchen to be prepared but not clean up the decorations/rubble?


 * "'operate' under odd/strained/war conditions"


 * Are you suggesting the place turned into some kind of soup kitchen? I wish you'd be more direct with your statements. What makes you think "fishemen from Port Neptune" would be coming to the restaurant in the first place? The place is too high scale and The Fighting McDonagh's Tavern is closer.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 01:22, April 17, 2014 (UTC)




 * but I don't see chefs and other staff staying there,
 * Brenda and Charlie are there and thats more than enough to operate the place under 'civil war'/emergency conditions.   Again --- this isnt ' Normal' Rapture any more.


 * Splicers would just kill the citizens that where trying to help
 * Remember this is (we see it in BS1) AFTER Ryan activated his Pheromeone Control mechanism and the Splicers have been largely pacified  (they are after Jack, but remember Ryan offered a Bounty for him and those Jack encounters would be  the ones willing to try to gain that Bounty (against a berserk killing machine) when many others might simply run the other direction)


 * Bioshock 2 Multiplayer
 * That is earlier in the Civil War, before the Pheromone thing


 * And don't forget about the philosophy, every man for themselves,
 * Except that doesnt mean anarchy and shooting anyone on sight to steal their stuff (again Pheromone ...)   No, not charity.  Brenda and Charlie are arguing about ADAM that Brenda claims is hers, likely that she got it in payment for whatever economy is operating at that point.  Why would they even be hanging around their restaurant unless it was to carry on its operation (yes, more a soup kitchen now - but part of the now mangled society Rapture was operating under at that time)


 * Where would the get the food? when the halls of Rapture is turned in to a battle field
 * Or no longer a battle field....
 * Obviously from somewhere after a year any stored food would have long run out (today in OUR world, supermarket shelves are bare in mere hours of an emergency being announced) )   So the economy had to go on. The fishermen, the farms, etc..   resumed once Ryan reestablished order and could stop the mayhem (we really arent given a date on WHEN he activated that Pheromone Control thing - might have been quite a while before Jack arrived - and the reason he (Jack) was activated   ---  when Fontaine/Atlas just lost his entire Splicer army to Ryans control or at least its nullification).
 * Testxyz (talk) 04:29, April 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * But if you look at the Kashmir there's not even signs of such things and have you seen in what condition the is in kitchen?
 * Charlie and Brenda are not in the right state of mind to make food, imagine them handling a knife and stove.
 * Why Kashmir? there's so many better places to hold such a place such as Arcadia or Neptune's Bounty.
 * I don't think that the Pheromone Control thing would make people less aggressive, you don't see any "Civilized" behavior like that anywhere.
 * You see two splicers in Olympus Hights! guarding there home and property, that's probably what Brenda and Charlie are doing or they forgot something or just couldn't reach there homes.
 * This is Rapture, charity is bad, why would Brenda, a respected businesses woman turn her luxury restaurant in to a soup kitchen?
 * We don't even know if Brenda or Charlie can make food, its not child's play and for a large amount of people, what if no one would show up? food is scares and goes to waist and how would they market it, its not like we heard: "Are you hungry? aren't caned food and dumpster diving your thing? Come to the Kashmir for a up lifting meal at the Welcome Center, No bombs this time! "Blink".
 * Just lock at the Manta Ray Lounge, that's basically the same idea as what your saying and look how that ended.
 * Shacob (talk) 23:03, April 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * But if you look at the Kashmir there's not even signs of such things and have you seen in what condition the is in kitchen?
 * So a messy kitchen cant have food made in it ?  You think the standards would sill be Cordon Bleu when all that was available was fish and potatos ?


 * Charlie and Brenda are not in the right state of mind to make food, imagine them handling a knife and stove.
 * Who says? Brenda sure wields a gun effectively. Splicers arent incapacitated and what do you think they eat ? slime out of the puddles?  Alot of people can 'cook' without even thinking about it.


 * Why Kashmir? there's so many better places to hold such a place such as Arcadia or Neptune's Bounty.
 * You mean why would you want to operate a kitchen in a restaurant that has a kitchen in it ?
 * Why Arcadia ? to feed the murderous Saturnine? Neptunes Bounty would still be operating and they might have the odd fish-fry once in a while.


 * I don't think that the Pheromone Control thing would make people less aggressive, you don't see any "Civilized" behavior like that anywhere.
 * If Ryan wanted Rapture to ever be restored it BETTER make Splicers less aggressive.
 * Remember the Bounty?  The Splicers after that Bounty are the ones you see in the game. All the rest are running away from that Guy running about slaughtering everything in sight.


 * You see two splicers in Olympus Hights! guarding there home and property, that's probably what Brenda and Charlie are doing or they forgot something or just couldn't reach there homes.
 * Could be, but dont they have a home somewhere else if there is no point being at a wrecked and deserted restaurant?  "I earned it" (Brenda saying) - doesnt that sound like she is still working ?? and what did she previously have as an occupation ??


 * This is Rapture, charity is bad, why would Brenda, a respected businesses woman turn her luxury restaurant in to a soup kitchen?
 * Again, NOT charity.  Ryan had to keep people alive to ever have a chance to rebuild his City. You never heard of being paid with food?   You think this is normal Rapture any more? A 'soup kitchen' is merely a place that people get mass fed in a simple way.


 * We don't even know if Brenda or Charlie can make food, its not child's play and for a large amount of people, what if no one would show up? food is scares and goes to waist and how would they market it, its not like we heard: "Are you hungry? aren't caned food and dumpster diving your thing? Come to the Kashmir for a up lifting meal at the Welcome Center, No bombs this time! "Blink".
 * Its not like we heard ALOT of things.  Theres a kitchen there and assuming someone is supplying food/making it available then why not have Brenda and Charlie keep working at their profession, feeding other people who are working at THEIR professions (like plugging leaks, fixing air vents, fishing, farming, distributing materials, whatever is keeping people alive)


 * Just lock at the Manta Ray Lounge, that's basically the same idea as what your saying and look how that ended.
 * NOT the same idea.
 * That was much earlier under Atlas (who I think when he tried to become 'boss' would have actually gotten his head blown off or have been incinerated), That was BEFORE the City fell apart and then the Pheromone Control could calm anyone down.  That was in a prison where insane inmates ran rampant. And strangely, the "Fontaine's" prison WAS supposed to being supplied by food by Ryan - so did Atlas grab it all for his 'revolution' (and dole it out as he saw fit) and the splicers didnt take kindly to that ?


 * How dense are you? You're just as bad as most of the writing done for Infinite or Burial at Sea or even either Bioshocks. All the stories have their faults but it was still basically cohesive but you've convoluted what happens and is known/ seen in-game with your own fantasy world of how things run, as if you're writer or creator of this world.
 * How dense are you? You're just as bad as most of the writing done for Infinite or Burial at Sea or even either Bioshocks. All the stories have their faults but it was still basically cohesive but you've convoluted what happens and is known/ seen in-game with your own fantasy world of how things run, as if you're writer or creator of this world.


 * So a messy kitchen cant have food made in it ?  You think the standards would sill be Cordon Bleu when all that was available was fish and potatos ?
 * It was all mush, piles of rotted mush with much of the kitchen in a derelict state. There's not much cooking in there and Brenda is the only "employee" as you'd call it and she was in no a way cook, but a restuarant owner.


 * Who says? Brenda sure wields a gun effectively. Splicers arent incapacitated and what do you think they eat ? slime out of the puddles?  Alot of people can 'cook' without even thinking about it.
 * And I quote:

"Come back and taste me!"
 * All splicers can weild guns and would you call them sane? These people who have done atrocious things without any sense of consciousness, who rip little girls for an addictive substance, who ramble on thinking things in past tense and have traits borderline compulsive? Yes completely sane


 * But is everyone left Splicers?  How many never used ADAM to that extent once seeing the sideeffects. YOu might consider that the really insane ones largely figured out how to get themselves killed even at that early a point (1960).   You assume everyone acts like the ones Jack runs into - what if there are 20X (or 100X)  as many who avoided Jack The Maniac ?   There must be someone (or many) sane ones left who do stuff to make food happen otherwise you or anyone else would be dead in a few weeks from starvation.  Think the bigger picture.






 * You mean why would you want to operate a kitchen in a restaurant that has a kitchen in it ?
 * Why Arcadia ? to feed the murderous Saturnine? Neptunes Bounty would still be operating and they might have the odd fish-fry once in a while.
 * Before I mention the Kashmir again, I'm going to bring up the Saturnine, the crazed splicers who perform cannabilism. Now why would they resort to cannablism if Rapture was abundant with food? Why would any splicer complain about going hungry or scavenge for food if your soup kitchen in the Kashmir was up and running like you so believe it is? Again, a derelict kitchen.


 * Drinking blood as part of their Pagan crazyness maybe ?   Blood we heard about.  Eating bodies ?....  We didnt.  (not that its impossible but then you'd think other 'normal' Splicers we ran into there would be avouiding that place ??    And thats a microcosm (Arcadia)  and right next door is FArmers MArket full of half rotted food and entire intact (huge) salamis noone has bothered to eat.   So No, it doesnt look like they are that sdtarving.  BTW if you wanted 'food' then you had to play by Ryans rules - like not killing and eating each other.   (Bigger picture again...)


 *  If Ryan wanted Rapture to ever be restored it BETTER make Splicers less aggressive. 
 *  Remember the Bounty?  The Splicers after that Bounty are the ones you see in the game. All the rest are running away from that Guy running about slaughtering everything in sight. 
 * Less aggressive? You do realize who you're speaking of right? For one, they're splicers, the pheromone control can only do so much, it would seem to be used just to reset them in a way or retarget them to a target. The bounty was just for the player's sake for an understanding, because truly, Ryan could have had the pheromone spread out throughout Rapture, said that and ALL splicers in vicinity would be on watch, for the most part. And where exactly has it happened in game of a splicer running away from you apart from going to heal themselves?


 * We rarely see them killing each other (Splicers).    The Bounty was an extended motivation (pheromone control doesn't turn you into a robot).   As for just having Ryan order all possible splicers simply Zerg Rush Jack (dead in about 10 seconds)  - if he didnt do that  -- why not ???  The WYK room in Rapture Central Control might offer a clue (that past a ceratin point he really didnt want Jack killed).   Splicers or other inhabitants could easily run away long before we ever saw them  (remember Ryan needs to rebuild his city and dead citizens cant do that).




 * Could be, but dont they have a home somewhere else if there is no point being at a wrecked and deserted restaurant?  "I earned it" (Brenda saying) - doesnt that sound like she is still working ?? and what did she previously have as an occupation ??
 * Many locations throughout Rapture was probably destroyed, blocked off, sunken or taken over that left many to leave their homes and hold out in either familiar places or strongholds. "I earned it" can have two different meanings, the meaning you see is of someone in a normal situation earning it through work in exchange for money. Now, this is Rapture, and how would you earn Adam? In pure form, how would you get pure form (Notice, there's no vial for Adam or bottle)? Murdering a little sister. So yes, she earned it.


 * Simple proof  - with all the destruction, people are still alive - ALOT of them.  We go thru a tiny part of Rapture and still see lots of people.   How long could YOU last with no food?   SO its logical things still are being done and Ryan is trying to keep people alive.   How does he do that?  He gets people to stop fighting, he stops Atlas from interfering, and he organizes things that keep people alive.
 * Pure form ?  You did hear Ryan offer a 1000ADAM Bounty?   He has the supply and runs the Little Sisters through much of the City.  E wants things done and uses that to pay people to keep things together -- simple, no ?




 * Again, NOT charity.  Ryan had to keep people alive to ever have a chance to rebuild his City. You never heard of being paid with food?   You think this is normal Rapture any more? A 'soup kitchen' is merely a place that people get mass fed in a simple way. 
 * Do you think Ryan cares honestly? If so, wouldn't he, oh I dont know, apply this "soup kitchen" line of thought you've thought up for him for those in Apollo Square and Pauper's Drop? Oh wait, he'd never because that is the dreaded act of altruism, the scorn of Ryan's society. The man killed Arcadia nearly trying to suffocate those in Rapture. Do you see any people using money apart from the player? Splicers pockets filled with money yet they are kicking vending machines or trying to hack it.


 * Yes, Ryan cares.  Its HIS city that he made happen.  The problems faced are NOT insurmountable  (he's not a 'quitter' and the tards at the game company were stupid to think he would be).   "Apollo Square and Pauper's Drop?"   those wasteland that Atlas still lurks in?  He would move people OUT of there to a safe place  ...   Again 'Altruism' is portrayed in a 6th grade manner in this game.  The act of building this whole city actually was an act of altruism.
 * Its 'Altruists' - people who force 'atltruism' on others for their OWN gains is really what Ryan is against.
 * Money? what good are 'Ryan Dollars' (tons on all thge  corpses) if most of the machines are empty (which for game reasons they unrealisticly were NOT empty.)   ADAM likely became the chief method of payment (whether the person used it or not).




 * Its not like we heard ALOT of things.  Theres a kitchen there and assuming someone is supplying food/making it available then why not have Brenda and Charlie keep working at their profession, feeding other people who are working at THEIR professions (like plugging leaks, fixing air vents, fishing, farming, distributing materials, whatever is keeping people alive)
 * Applying your logic, there's a theme park there and assuming the ride is operational then why not have the splicers there keep working at their profession? I'm pretty sure there's a sign saying "Do not operate machinery under the influence of ADAM", if not there should because ADAM is like any addictive drugs and substances, you aren't coherant.


 * Practicality.  Try to imagine yourself actually there.   Theme park does nothing to get food or keep you alive.  If you worked previously in a 'theme park' wouldnt you go join a farm to be able to eat?    BTW Booker in DLC was 'under the influence of ADAM  (the BIC lighter trick he does for Elizabeth in the 5 minute preview...)    Does he look insane or debilitated?   SO its a matter of degree.   And with alot less ADAM and probably fewer Splicer survivors you dont have people going on 'Splicing Trips' for recreation any more.    How many druggies do you know??   Addictive drugs vary alot.  A general statement that all ADAM users "aren't coherant." is an assumption on your part  (and ignore many survivors who possibly never even used any).




 *  NOT the same idea. 
 *  That was much earlier under Atlas (who I think when he tried to become 'boss' would have actually gotten his head blown off or have been incinerated), That was BEFORE the City fell apart and then the Pheromone Control could calm anyone down.  That was in a prison where insane inmates ran rampant. And strangely, the "Fontaine's" prison WAS supposed to being supplied by food by Ryan - so did Atlas grab it all for his 'revolution' (and dole it out as he saw fit) and the splicers didnt take kindly to that ?  
 * Oh so when stock piling or passing food out for money as you previous mentioned before that didn't work for Atlas, it'll work for Ryan? Considering the splicers we see in Burial at Sea were precursors to the splicers we see in Bioshock, I'm pretty sure any stock piling is impossible (ex. Look at any store, shops or homes to see food and supplies mostly cleared out out of kitchens or safes or whatever type of storage or rooms there'd be. To reiterate what you said with a few fill in the blanks of my own:
 * It worked fine for Atlas LATER.  Im taking about pre-Kashmir and specificly IN Fontaine's Department Store where the 'people' there are his ex-minions  NOT poor people who he preyed on later to coerce their support.   Think of a criminal gang.  Ruthless people, already lawbreakers.  This guy you never saw before tries to make himself 'boss' and starts ordering you around.  You have a gun or plasmid which can kill him easily.  It just takes ONE of all those thugs to decide they didnt like 'Atlas' lording it over them to simply kill him .  If he reveals himself as 'Fontaine' who had the reputation then it would 'get out '
 * and so much for all that twisty half-assed plot.


 *  "so did Ryan grab it (food) all for his 'restoration' (and dole it out as he saw fit) and the splicers didnt take kindly to that ? " 161.38.221.223 16:15, April 29, 2014 (UTC) 




 * The problem with Fontaine trapped in that store is that HE was smart enough to be a mile away from the Neptunes Bounty shootout and to have previously prepared multiple 'safe houses' to hide in while he 'died' and Rapture Security rounded up many of his minions.
 * They had to imbed him in this mess of a plot to make believe it was part of the old storylines. Unfortunately they tied in WAY TOO MANY things  (Suchong "the universal Genius" is another raft of illogical and lazy writing).
 * I wont even go into how STUPID a portrayal that so-called 'prison' situation was.  Again, you almost couldnt possibly make it any more likely to FAIL  -- but then thats the whole bit  -- of them (game writers) having to have the REAL game be a shoot-em-up slaughterfest   -- thats the priority, NOT having a logical/cohesive plot.  It being DLC closing out the company probably went a long way in making nobody care.









Open for Business (continued)
'''You're thinking into it in your narrowing perspective of how you personally think and summoned up in your head. Ultimately, the writers decide what happens is going to happen and as much as you go with your own words, its not the word of canon.'''

''Or Im projecting reality as an extension of it. The writers HAVENT decides alot of this because they havent mentioned alot of details AT ALL - huge missing chunks dont constitute 'canon' either'. Alot of what we have to go on is vague and opinions from Audio Diaries.''

-

''But is everyone left Splicers? How many never used ADAM to that extent once seeing the sideeffects. YOu might consider that the really insane ones largely figured out how to get themselves killed even at that early a point (1960). You assume everyone acts like the ones Jack runs into - what if there are 20X (or 100X)  as many who avoided Jack The Maniac ? There must be someone (or many) sane ones left who do stuff to make food happen otherwise you or anyone else would be dead in a few weeks from starvation. Think the bigger picture.''

'''Yes not everyone spliced, we see hear from these people post-Kashmir (Diane McClintock, Bill McDonagh, Anya Andersdotter, etc.) and as far as we know, they either went into hiding (Tenenbaum, Sinclair, Lamb) or died by the hands of splicers or desperate people. Like McDonagh said, it was an arms race, people lining up to get powered up till the point of a plasmid shortage. But think to it, when you think you clear out an area, when you later walk about the same area, more splicers are exploring, either trying to find you in specific or because its their territory. '''

'''Again, in what instance have you seen splicers running away from Jack? Only instances is when they run away to heal themselves or get out of dodge or Steinman creating a blockage. I don't assume, I see. You assume that splicers would have enough sense in mind to run away. Going by your logic, wouldn't splicers run away when they see their numbers decimated by the boy wonder? Again, the splicers scavenged through safes, corpses or trash piles for food. The sane left population either had a steady source or kept a stockpiled supply to last.'''

''You dont need to see them run away. They simply didnt stick around. Ones who are AFTER that BOUNTY can keep showing up. ''Again they are MOTIVATED to go get JAck. Any others stay away.

''You see? What do you see? Only as far as the edge of the walls. Did you see the cityscape out the window? What fraction of Rapture or even the complete building we wer in did 'you see' ?''

Steady source ? Farms, fishing ? Activities like that ? Organized activities ??

Stockipiles? Are YOU making an ASSUMPTION now? What stockpiled did you 'see' that added upto more than a few meals? You cant have it both ways.

-

''Drinking blood as part of their Pagan crazyness maybe ? Blood we heard about. Eating bodies ?.... We didnt. (not that its impossible but then you'd think other 'normal' Splicers we ran into there would be avouiding that place ??    And thats a microcosm (Arcadia)  and right next door is FArmers MArket full of half rotted food and entire intact (huge) salamis noone has bothered to eat.   So No, it doesnt look like they are that sdtarving.  BTW if you wanted 'food' then you had to play by Ryans rules - like not killing and eating each other.   (Bigger picture again...)''

'''Well, who's to say they didn't or any other group of splicers didn't? As you are thinking into the life of splicers I can as well, what if they were truly desperate and saw little sisters deriving ADAM from corpses and thinking they could do the same and consume the body to get ADAM. Bigger picture right? And there are no "normal" splicers, there are just splicers, the crazed. Of course, splicers have a sense of self preservation (being aware when an enemy like the player, other splicers or big daddys are around) but thats just basic animalistic instinct. And how exactly would the splicers know that Jack was a madman? It is apparent Jack wasn't the only suspicious figure to arrive to Rapture without invitation (Johnny Topside, Meltzer), and its not like word travels fast considering most of the splicers who encounter Jack are killed by him. The only word splicers have of the player is via PSA from Ryan about his bounty. You do know in disasterous situations like civil wars or any wars, that desperate times call for desperate measures? Less people means more food for oneself or ones group.'''

''I never said they couldnt. ''

''Sorry Ive already shown that 'splicers' is a spectrum - varying from 'crazed wall chewers to those barely effected mentally. And the crazyness varies too - Cohen as an example - quite different from the standard  'see Jack - attack Jack' behavior.''

''How 'madman' ? Maniac ? Someone blundering through the city shooting up the place  (after Ryan had gotten it all nice and calmed down). An invader? ... Whatever  - Someone attacking Big Daddies and FREEing those nice useful Little Sisters who make the ADAM eevryone needs??? Imagine how doing THAT sounds to a addicted splicer. ''

''Who says word doesnt travel fast ? ''If you knew the ways around you could move way faster than Jack was blundering about. You had a radio. Why not others?

''Less people also can mean 'hey that guy who trades me fish - if I kill him I dont eat no more'... Also remember Pheromone Control kinda had stopped alot of this unreasonable violence.''

Ryans goals would be to eliminate that 'desperation' which would now be possible by organizing things and getting back to some semblance of 'normal'.

-

''We rarely see them killing each other (Splicers). The Bounty was an extended motivation (pheromone control doesn't turn you into a robot). As for just having Ryan order all possible splicers simply Zerg Rush Jack (dead in about 10 seconds)  - if he didnt do that  -- why not ??? The WYK room in Rapture Central Control might offer a clue (that past a ceratin point he really didnt want Jack killed). Splicers or other inhabitants could easily run away long before we ever saw them  (remember Ryan needs to rebuild his city and dead citizens cant do that).''

'''How many times would game makers how to show splicers killing each other? Lets see, splicer exploding another splicer at the crematorium, a splicer killing another splicer in an argument at Adonis Resort, having an enrage plasmid in generality, Steinman killing a splicer right before the player, a splicer fighting a houdini in fort frolic. oh yes, they don't fight each other.'''

'''Pheromone control takes control of the splicers, why do you think there was an audio diary specifying it and why Ryan felt against it because it went against his ideals and how that was what turned the tides as Atlas' followers suddenly changed teams and he had to retreat with very few unspliced lackeys left at his expense. He probably started to put two and two together during the blocked radio transmissions thanks to Cohen in the Fort Frolic level because as you reach Hephaetus, he starts toying and feeding vague bits of information to the player. '''

'''He wanted to even kill the player more knowing the players "intention" (summoning Splicers to kill him in the trophy room and other parts of Hephaetus). After a certain point, he made his decision, to give Jack the slap of reality and betrayal as well as die on his own terms, telling Jack to kill him purposely. Sweat of your own brow, not the brow of others, Ryan considers himself to be the man who built the impossible when he just funded it, not physically build it himself. Gotta look at the smaller picture and look into the psych of these characters, most of which were self-centered and put themselves on a pedastal'''

''Killing each other - what percentage? half? 1 in 10? just a few out of all the hundreds we see? Nobody said the Pheromeone Control was perfect (and it was dependant on the 'splicers' using the new modified ADAM products Ryan had to supply).''

Its also so convenient all those little vignettes happen JUST as we step thru the door ??

''Adonis Resort? You mean 8 years later and with Sofia Lamb in charge?''

when he just funded it'  - 'no Ryan did a bit more than that.

'smaller' picture' - yeah, one dimensional is basicly what we got, largely vague cartoon cutouts

-

''Simple proof  - with all the destruction, people are still alive - ALOT of them. We go thru a tiny part of Rapture and still see lots of people. How long could YOU last with no food? SO its logical things still are being done and Ryan is trying to keep people alive. How does he do that? He gets people to stop fighting, he stops Atlas from interfering, and he organizes things that keep people alive. Pure form ? You did hear Ryan offer a 1000ADAM Bounty? He has the supply and runs the Little Sisters through much of the City. E wants things done and uses that to pay people to keep things together -- simple, no ?''

'''I never said that all the unspliced and/or sane people died out did I? I DID say that many had to retreat and create strongholds and probably ventured out or used the pneumo system to trade with other survivors (as shown in the supposed deleted content of BS2). Ryan killed off his head engineer McDonagh, killed off Langford who maintained Arcadia, a source of Rapture's air supply, doesn't sound like a man concerned about perserving the very few saned left, let alone helping those who would be capable of rebuilding the city (he ignored the Wales brothers, the architects of Rapture, and left them into debt). He was a hermit, locking himself up in Rapture Central Control, and he didn't seem to literally fix every nook and cranny of Rapture but still to have it running (old PSA announcements saying Rapture is still on the rise, etc.). So you're saying Ryan paid Brenda for a deed shes done? seems unlikely given her speech nor Ryans concludes anything to that and is more likely she killed a little sister for the ADAM slug inside her, since that is the only way to retrieve ADAM in its "pure form", the slug. As far as we know, He has his own personal supply of ADAM as honey to a city full of flies. I doubt he has his hands on any more little sisters given Big Daddies as their protectors or Tenenbaum saving them. Why would they intentionally go to Ryan, the little sisters? Seems like, as BaS proposes, a symboitic bond, Big Daddies need Little Sisters ADAM and Little Sisters need protection from big daddies.'''

McDonagh tried to kill Ryan (like every one of those others on his trophy wall - betrayed him and tried to murder him ... he took it personal).

''Rapture's air supply  - rapture had many air supplies and we ranb into the room right after LAngford was 'gassed'  -- did you choke when you did that? Did you check for a pulse?''

''Seriously if Ryan wanted to kill everyone he could have easily done it at any time - just shut off the power and let everyone sufficate/freeze/starve. Probably could have flooded the whole place too. But he really didnt, did he?''

''Wales brothers, the architects - the ones who designed leaky buildings ? design is a bit different than 'maintaining'/'repairing'. Since we saw them later in BS2 we really dont know what state they were in in BS1. Debts were  irrelevant by the time of the civil war - and they put themselves out of business long before that - remember.''

''He was a hermit -  until Altas was gone probably smart if Ryan wanted a chance to live to rebuild his city. No?''

''Ryan paid Brenda - yup something like that. You did hear that 1000ADAM announcement.?? I guess people there still too Ryans leadership serious. ''

''Brenda attacked Little Sister to 'earn it' ? Really, with a pistol? And she isnt turned into chutney like suchong or that first guy in the Footlight Theater ?? Whos making assumptions now?''

''As far as we know -   no we DONT know  - Little Sisters are still running about 'harvesting' so isnt it logical that they are still being used to produce ADAM for the (Ryans) city ?? Another thing wre dont get much info about... Somehow you assume Ryan didnt have alot of people still working for him? People desperate for any kind of order? To get the food produced and whatever else that needed to be organized ???''

'intentionally go to Ryan, the little sisters? -'''  how did they get them out of them before this whole mess started?? Ryan arranged for it to be done that same way.''

-

''Yes, Ryan cares. Its HIS city that he made happen. The problems faced are NOT insurmountable  (he's not a 'quitter' and the tards at the game company were stupid to think he would be). "Apollo Square and Pauper's Drop?" those wasteland that Atlas still lurks in? He would move people OUT of there to a safe place  ... Again 'Altruism' is portrayed in a 6th grade manner in this game. The act of building this whole city actually was an act of altruism. Its 'Altruists' - people who force 'atltruism' on others for their OWN gains is really what Ryan is against. Money? what good are 'Ryan Dollars' (tons on all thge  corpses) if most of the machines are empty (which for game reasons they unrealisticly were NOT empty.)   ADAM likely became the chief method of payment (whether the person used it or not).''

'''Again, he cares about the city, but that doesn't entirely mean its people. Even at the end, he ordered the self destruction of his city, because if he cant have it, no one can. Now, knowing that there are people, either sane or spliced in his city, doesn't sound like he wants to help preserve it anymore. No, the act of building the city was not from altruism, not because it was something the craftsmen could put into their portfolio for free, Ryan paid them, promised them a city where they would supposedly thrive in in a laissez faire esque state. For their own gain is exactly what Ryan wants, not against. I mean, at first he revelled at how Fontaine was able to be the top of his game and said that he was a prime example of a Rapture man. And yet, despite dollars currency being "useless" you see splicers messing and tampering with the machines, trying to get supplies out of it. Again, you are assuming that they'd pay each other in ADAM. Thats a possibly and just as much as you see the greater picture, i see this as a greater picture as well. If splicers knew someone was witholding an amount of ADAM, would they so kindly want to trade? NO, they'd kill for it (at least until the events of Bioshock 2 where they preserve the Little Sisters and are given ADAM via Lamb for "good" deeds, and yet even in BS2, if you weren't part of the Rapture family, you were considered the enemy and killed off for the most part).'''

that doesn't entirely mean its people -   Rapture as a city includes its people -- very basic.

''doesn't sound like he wants to help preserve it anymore -   To you. I see lots of contrary evidence to that .''

''building the city was not from altruism -  Ryans Altruism for his making a place he saw as saving mankind. Also 'building a city' is more than putting up a bunch of building.''

''the greater picture -  the greater picture I see is how fast things fall apart and without someone leading the place it would have long previously died - a cold dark frozen watery tomb. Vending Machines are empty, canned food long gone.. Fishing Subs eventually stop working. How long would YOU last ?? SO the logical thing would be Ryan (who had the ability) was still keeping it together.''

''they'd kill for it - Again you assume they are ALL batshit crazy. By the time we (Jack) got there alot of those people were long dead  (and ADAM doesnt stop you from needing to eat).''

''given ADAM via Lamb -   so Sophia Lamb can do it somehow and Ryan couldnt ??? Thats not very logical. 'Good' is following that guy who knows how to keep me alive and cooperating  (plus a little Pheromone Control motivation to be reasonable)''

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''Practicality. Try to imagine yourself actually there. Theme park does nothing to get food or keep you alive. If you worked previously in a 'theme park' wouldnt you go join a farm to be able to eat? BTW Booker in DLC was 'under the influence of ADAM  (the BIC lighter trick he does for Elizabeth in the 5 minute preview...)    Does he look insane or debilitated? SO its a matter of degree. And with alot less ADAM and probably fewer Splicer survivors you dont have people going on 'Splicing Trips' for recreation any more. How many druggies do you know?? Addictive drugs vary alot. A general statement that all ADAM users "aren't coherant." is an assumption on your part  (and ignore many survivors who possibly never even used any).''

'''Okay, I'll try this exercise, for instance, if I was amongst the rich and mighty, I'd be fearful of my life, heck at first I'd carry a gun around me at all times and jitter everytime I heard a large clank, but thats if I even go outside considering the war is still going on, with structural damage happening to all parts of the city, I'd take whatever I can and hide out, maybe assemble a small group if possible. '''

''And what if all your money wouldnt get you anything. You might still have 'stuff', but everyone else has the same idea and like a supermarket just before a hurricane, the shlves are empty within hours of a panic.''

''Where would you hideout? How would you move all this 'stuff' ?? That small group will require their own supplies to live too. Maybe in the night when you are asleep, they decide there will be more 'stuff' for them with YOU out of the way -- you better be able to trust this 'small group' of yours.''

''Not quite so nice and simple now is it. Dont you think it might be a good idea to look to Ryan for leadership to maintain order? To HELP be apart of keeping things running/fixing things to PREVENT it from getting so deperate *seriously your chances really arent that good without that).   The food WILL eventually run out. Uncontrolled Splicers eventually would get you one way or another.   Better to work together in a big enough way to avoid that hopeless bunker mentality?''

'''Last resort (or even first) I would have to arm myself with more than just firearms since I know the constables of Rapture are nearly decimated and hired untrained nobodies as constables (Bioshock: Rapture book), after all, every man for himself. Now if I was poor, even worse, I'd lose all hope, as if it wasn't hard enough living in the poorer areas of Rapture, now there's a full out war happening with dead littered in the streets and next door neighbors killing each other regardless of class, not being able to leave as Apollo Square and other adjacent areas being on lockdown and with what. '''

Sorry at that point your being 'rich' might not get you much - might actually make you a bigger target.

I'm not able to afford plasmids, only the rich and those part of Fontaine's crew had access to it, 

''If 'poor' you arent? We saw machines all over. ADAM was a mass consumer product. Ryan has to et Splicers to use the new Pheromone enhanced ADAM stuff to get control of them (and apparently did by the time Jack gets there). If its hard to get (shortages, Ryans forces only etc...)  then you think your now largely worthless money means you would be likely to get any?? Maybe ONLY if you are useful to Ryan to keep things running to assist HIM in this emergency might you get any ??? And there probably already are a whole lot of people ahead of you for that already (Brenda knows how to organize/handle/prepare food for large numbers of people - what do YOU know how to do that might be useful?)''

'''what's the point of trying to live if I'm going to end up dying in the hands of another man or woman. Like that? Even before the New Years Riots, with tensions high, they (Sinclair Solutions under Ryan Industries) refurbished novelty and relatively weak plasmids into combat plasmids. And ADAM is a drug, get even the littlest taste of one and you're hooked and you'd want more, there's no controlling it. '''

You mean like Booker the Splicer in BaSx ???

'''Look at how real druggies in the real world are. Many don't make it back or quit, and those who do tend to revert back. Do you not remember what Atlas or even Tenenbaum and many others say through the entirety of the world? It messed with your genetical code, that sounds like hard stuff as is. People killing babies in cribs, faces deteoriating as fast as their minds creating monsters that come out of the "bible". '''

''Matter of degree. And just like real drugs different people react differently in effect and magnitude.''

And as previously mentioned, many who went far unstable are likely already dead.

'''The book goes more into depth with this, as the first tests on plasmids showed subjects becoming horrible disfigured to the point of being unrecognizable as a normal being. '''

''Didnt you say if you dont see it in the game, its not canon? ''

Anyway Spider Spicers look human much ?

''Those were also the first tests. Didnt quite hav ethe knack for it yet. If Fontaines stuff did that the public would have strung him up right quick. (BTW this is part of the fabricated plot that had the serious  ADAM effects LONG delayed to justify its mass use in Rapture - you dont THINK Ryan would have really shut the whole industry down - the public actually would have been demanding it and arresting Fontaine for poisoning people - simply as a public health issue)''

'''Now, tell me, does THAT sound like some weak addictive drug? '''

''Addiction is a seperate effect from the physical/mental deterioration. YOU can get a disfiguring cancer in the real world with NO "addiction" being involved.''

'''Even in the precursor Splicer dialogue, one speaks of continually trying to improve his looks and "aesthetics" to impress a lady. Whether I personally know druggies or not, if I said either or I'd have as much credibility of knowing the adverse effects of drugs as you do, yet its always in the media, its taught in health classes and even seminars are held to advice not only adults but young teens and kids. There are documentaries, tv shows, movies and even touched on by cartoons in a lighter tone. '''

So while yes, in moderation and great control, a person can still strive and stay sane enough BUT given the circumstances after the riots, people stormed the markets for plasmids to arm themselves with for their own or their families/ friends protection (look at BS2's Multiplayer characters' reasons for splicing.

''Shortages and maybe only a fraction of the people getting any or any large amount. Disorder causing the production to be limited. Ryan seizing what there WAS for his forces use (or later for the deployment of the Pheromone.''

The amount/time of use WOULD be significant, or we would have had been inundated with Newspapers and other media there DENOUNCING it as poison  even before Kashmir or Fontaines 'death'  (when he was in the story selling alot to the public - mass consumer product)

Each have their own reason, and even though it may or may not be considered canon, it gives a perspective into the lives of many denizens). Just like Jack or Delta or Sigma, Booker, for gameplay reasons alike, can't have effects that the player can visually see in first person.

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''It worked fine for Atlas LATER. Im taking about pre-Kashmir and specificly IN Fontaine's Department Store where the 'people' there are his ex-minions  NOT poor people who he preyed on later to coerce their support. Think of a criminal gang. Ruthless people, already lawbreakers. This guy you never saw before tries to make himself 'boss' and starts ordering you around. You have a gun or plasmid which can kill him easily. It just takes ONE of all those thugs to decide they didnt like 'Atlas' lording it over them to simply kill him. If he reveals himself as 'Fontaine' who had the reputation then it would 'get out ' and so much for all that twisty half-assed plot.''

'''And yet, through the mix of his ex-minions, there are a small group of close followers that know of Atlas' true identity, a close knit group that Atlas can trust and most likely must have had a leadership type of role or connection to the ex-crew junkies roaming the department store. '''

Must ?

''Really? Is that mentioned anywhere? Ryans spies wouldnt pick up on it? Fontaine didnt seem really the trusting type. One loose tongue and there he is caught  in that nice 'prison'  easily grabbed for execution for his (Fontaines) crimes. Think how many might want to get out by  betraying him to Ryan - or just killing Atlas and handing over his head saying that it was Fontaine... Little loyalty amongst thieves and 'Fontaine' didnt exactly hold all the cards any more.  The more he coerses the more they might think 'lets kill this asshole'...''

'''Atlas doesn't order anyone around except for his lackeys, even lawbreakers report to higher ups like mafias or even the most infamous gangs have and need a figurehead to look up to, and people follow word of mouth. '''

''No. People (criminals) follow coersion or a well organized society with strict rules (developed over centuries)  Most criminal gangs actually fall apart quite quickly. The other 'unknowing' ones - why should they follow Fontaines close minions any more than Atlas/Fontaine himself?''

And not everyone locked in there was Fontaine's gangs, many were simply employees (female splicers with teacher dialogues, male splicers with salesmen dialogue, etc.) 

''Part of the 'stupid prison' (mentioned below)... For the dim DLC BaSx plot, but not very logical at all.''

I cant help it if the 'canon' was written so badly.

'''A guy who made a name of himself in poorer regions like Apollo Square and now in with these folks? It is plausible that while the poor population remained relatively unspliced due to the high prices of ADAM (pre-Kashmir), '''

''Poor who (if he (atlas) really was active yet)  who he was bribing and telling them what they wanted to hear. Normal people might look at him and say - anarchist - bolshevik - trouble maker - criminal - and think how the hell do I get out of here.''

'''Fontaine's crew for the most part would have been spliced up the wazoo so adding both to a mix, he has his army, both of which were under his wing (as Fontaine) to begin with. There would have been a month or two before the department store got hastily converted to a prison and Atlas (due to his rise of power not gone unnoticed by Ryan) put into Fontaine's in hopes that he would die by the hides of the ruthless. But its a plot device obviously, looking at the perspective of a single instead of than the whole as you seem to have it, if they were to kill Atlas, then what? Nothing, no game, no story, and even a more lost convoluted story. And yet again, there is your expressed opinion given things didn't go the way you thought up in your head to be due to your own idea of how Rapture was, which is all fine and dandy, but as I said, the writers of the game, no matter how good or bad it is, has the end saying.'''

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''The problem with Fontaine trapped in that store is that HE was smart enough to be a mile away from the Neptunes Bounty shootout and to have previously prepared multiple 'safe houses' to hide in while he 'died' and Rapture Security rounded up many of his minions. They had to imbed him in this mess of a plot to make believe it was part of the old storylines. Unfortunately they tied in WAY TOO MANY things  (Suchong "the universal Genius" is another raft of illogical and lazy writing). I wont even go into how STUPID a portrayal that so-called 'prison' situation was. Again, you almost couldnt possibly make it any more likely to FAIL  -- but then thats the whole bit  -- of them (game writers) having to have the REAL game be a shoot-em-up slaughterfest   -- thats the priority, NOT having a logical/cohesive plot. It being DLC closing out the company probably went a long way in making nobody care.''

But yet, he was still smart enough, he had his office at the topic of the department wing, had a secret office behind the bar and probably many more other hiding places or two in his OWN department store.

''And nobody searched this place that was going to be used as a prison ? Office wasnt a  logical place to thoroughly search for evidence (not just on Fontaine, but all his operations and other criminals he had working for him) ??? 'See thas what I mean by 'stupid. But then never let logic or reason get in the way of the plot...''

''' How exactly did they? I mean, it didn't really take much to sway those in the poorer areas (refer to Fontaine's audio diary of "... hand these mugs a cot and a bowl of soup, and they give me their lives." Story point of view, if he thought since it worked again but under his Atlas persona, then it should work in here too. '''

''Poor people vs criminals .... No.  Whole different mindsets.''

'''See? Reasoning, despite it ending up not to work the same way but you can see the reason why he'd done this. And now you're just nit picking pointless plot points that aren't even big plot points that contribute to the story. '''

''Small plot points add upto big plot points. 2+2=5   Sorry nitpicking details that they actually bothered  to present to you (why did they mention any of those 'small details/plot points' unless its part of telling the story??)''

''Maybe you didnt notice it was alot of the previous Bioshock game modus operandi  to give the player lots of details and small plot points?? Otherwise all you had left was a inferior shooter game.''

'''Nonetheless, Suchong the universal genius is Suchong honking his own horn. It is known that Suchong is into himself, on a high horse and believes everyone else to be stupid and second rate. '''

''Missed my point. Vita Chamber development (rather than testing - they even SAID in the pre-DLC games that he didnt know HOW it worked and thought it all BS)    Making the Lutece machine -- he's a doctor/geneticist  not an engineer or theoretical physicist. Ontop of that the SO narrow timeframe for him to get anything done   (whats the date he met Fink ??) but then they did that with everything in the DLC.''

'''With Tenenbaum gone, he could take all the credit to and for himself, only feeding into his ego. And Ryan didn't care, the less people asked about Tenenbaum, the better.'''

''' Stupid portrayal? Really, because a city under the sea wasn't unbelievable enough, another prison hanging upside down over an abyss wasn't unbelievable enough? You're thinking from an individualistic point of view not a view of the whole. '''

OK,  then 'infinitely' stupider ....

'''Do you think people would play this if they knew it was just an expositional game mechanic? If all you did was walk around and see events happen around you or have the whole game just be in stealth (which a large chunk of players dislike or aren't good at, which is challenging to make as is to play). And yet thats what you expect, to be fed a logical plot? '''

Yes - not trashing the story of the previous games would have  been nice.

'''a plot that covers an entirety of a fiction city in a fictional world. That is an insult to say, they could have reused all of the props and wiz from Infinite and stamped on Rapture on it, but they didn't. '''

''Actually thats largely what they did - recycle and namedrop alot of crap thinking they could simply get away with (mis)tieing up alot of plot strings (all they did was create a mess of a knot). Unfortunately they were then in   'Infinite BS'   mode, and departed from cohesion with the original canon (and shoved in all the quantum pseudo science and multiverse weirdness). ''

'''Despite being laid off, they worked to make this last bit of a finale to be the best possible given the time and anticipation. Blame the writers if you will, but don't doubt the work and thought put into the modeling and animation, which in my opinion was much more fluidly animated than Infinite itself. The best you should do with what new bits of information we have is incorporate it, redact some bits and pieces from either this DLC or previous installments to make it cohesive, not just badger it because you hated the main Infinite game to start with for your own agenda.'''

Sorry, if thats their best ....

Unfortunately  adaquately glitzy asset generation doesnt make up for the bad story writing.

''Except remember this is Rapture 'Prime'  ...... Would have been simpler if they HADNT messed it up. But then its 'a done deal'  and we are left with what they produced. ''

''I love when people say 'hate' like this, it shows how little they know. Its not hate - its pity and disappointment for what they turned  Bioshock into. Its simply a shame.''


 * People!


 * What are we even arguing about at this point? Picking apart the minutiae of these debates isn't getting us anywhere. These discussions aren't convincing anyone, they're not productive. Let's just let it go.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 21:06, May 1, 2014 (UTC)