User talk:Testxyz

Bioshock MMORPG
Go and take a look to this 'Wall of Text' style Wiki

Rapture MMORPG design and ideas

12/25/2013   Apollo Square enhanced map added to Wiki

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Metro Map
Hi, welcome to the site and thanks for your series of recent contibutions. This Metro Map you added is very impressive. I assume it's fan-made, right? Just wanted to be sure that this is or isn't canon, lest other editors get their hopes up. It definitely shows the scale that Rapture could be. If you have a backstory surrounding it, it'd be great if you shared it with us in a forum so we can know what place like "The Shallows," "Field of Hades," "Hudson," and "Fumerole Alley" are.

Unownshipper (talk) 01:02, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

Very impressive, well done! I like the idea of some backstories!

Chezzeball97 (talk) 07:35, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

Yep, fan made. Its not Canon, even though its based on the maps in the game  (the BS1 bathysphere map for alot of the shape, and the AE map for the southern part of the City -- that AE one in BS2 could only be a partial section map as it goes hardly anywhere useful for it to be the complete system map)

Lots of elements shown on my map were created as 'logical' -- to have any chance of the city being self-supporting (things like extensive farms or the extended geothermal fields near Heshphaestus or an industrial zone in the north closer to the surface and all the air it would require).

Additional nodes were added to those game maps (many named again with 'logical' functions and placement) and various supposition about the vague maps we were given. A major assumption is that the Bathyspheres are not sufficient for 'transit' and thatTrolley system we saw truncated in BS2 would really be  the main passenger system throughout the City and  the old AE still existed as a Freight system (alot of stuff moves about in a city of 20000 without cars/trucks)

You can see alot more stuff (way too much in some peoples opinion)  in the Wiki Ive built which is a composite of ideas for a MMORPG (an unlikely thing to actually happen) and post BS2 projections as part of a possible plotline. There are huge "Walls of Text"  but also diagrams and extended game level maps there.

http://rapturerebornmmorpg.wikia.com

Testxyz (talk) 07:39, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

that map is AMAZING dude that is one of the coolest and complicated things ive seen a fan do! dude i was wandering if its cool with you as you know i am makeing a BioShock 3 Game on my Blog and i was thinking i might use your map as reference is that cool with you i wont proceed with that idea if you dont want me do.

18:36, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

hay i was looking at the map and i realised there was a AE track (i think) that was just cut off at the right side of the map, wheres it go or did u not think that far? just wandering if it leads to another part of rapture or not? im just curious. once agane awsome map!

00:02, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Actually they go off the top and right and left sides to places outside of the City which would be places where raw materials would be obtained (industrial operations or possibly some kind of farms close to the surface where light still reaches).

There also would have been outlying communities (like suburbs) built for people who got tired of the crowding - built after the main city construction was over, when labor and equipment was cheaper. The new construction was supposed to be underground tunnels, through sufficiently strong igneous rock  - and thus cheaper to build than buildings made of concrete and possibly having more open  air space. There would be farms out there too (Ryan had plans that allowed his city to expand over time)

The area Rapture is built in is only part of a large (old) undersea volcano so other areas off the map are as close  (depth) to the surface as Rapture is (edge of a circular crater). I had a map I did that shows this but has no names for any locations  and really only extends about 10 miles away in any direction.

Testxyz (talk) 09:54, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

ok cool might make for a good plot for my game thanx. by the way i have uplouded level 6 Athrodite's Beauty if ur interested.

13:12, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

http://rapturerebornmmorpg.wikia.com/wiki/File:RaptureBig.png

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cool man so Rapture is pretty huge (and spread out) tha will be so hard to use all the areas (unless they made like maby 6 BioShock games lol).

16:48, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

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Many of the outer sites may be an industrial operation with only a handful of workers manning them -- fish/kelp farms, sand, minerals (actually a volcanoe only offers a limited number of those), maybe more geothermal. Other 'suburb' areas - who knows how many people would want to move or afford it (some more 'tunnel' farms if there was the right kind of rock thats sufficiently self supporting -- even hydroponic farms use alot of space and there are 20k-40k people to feed). There might be research labs out there too. BTW- Even just the main part of the city - we hardly saw/went thru any of the total amount of it  (the inside parts),  with some idea of its extent being shown in the distance thru the windows.

Testxyz (talk) 12:50, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

completly true my freind. well maby we will never know the true extent of Rapture lol, but we can sure try and fil in the gaps. :)

14:36, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

"Hudson" you saw on light fixtures  in Sirens Alley -- so its a logical possibility that its a rival power company to Rapture Power (Hesphaestus) - Ryan didnt pay for all of  Rapture himself and other rich people invested alot in building it and they of course would own the parts they paid for. Ditto for Vulcans Forge. Fumerole alley - would be a chemical plant using chemicals recovered from geothermal vents (more stuff to make the City self sufficient).

The Shallows is an outgrowth of the idea that Rapture is built on the side of a volcanic 'Sea Mount'  (that area west of iceland the flat seabed is 1000 meters deep -- too far for engineering of 50s era), and if part rose high enough to put the Lighthouse on, then there would be some areas closer to the surface than the rest of Rapture  (which is far enough deep to avoid having the tall buildings destroyed by passing icebergs). Might be enough shallow areas for kelp farms and such near enough the surface to get some sun light. Heavy industry uses huge amounts of air, so being closer to surface makes it logical to be there (also might be shallow enough to use conventional diving suits which in real life cant go routinely below 100-150 feet deep)

Extensive farms - tunnels are far cheaper to build than buildings (even hydroponics takes alot of space/volume for food for 20000 (novels) population). Plus air production. But only in certain places the volcanic rock is solid  enuf to not leak/ strong enough to take the water pressure 600 feet down (not always the case in a volcanoe's structure that gets laid down in layers, etc...)

Testxyz (talk) 07:51, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous Talk Page comments
Your comments are consistant with the Sea Slug Talk Page, along with those that appeared in recent months. Please log in the Wiki if you're going to use Talk Pages, along with not altering a User's comment, such as Pauolo's comment in the Sea of Doors Talk Page. Evans0305 (talk) 17:58, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Burial at Sea
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-10-04-assessing-raptures-return-in-burial-at-sea

Hope that answers your questions instead of mass editing in talk pages, and asking three questions at once. Don't read the article if you don't want to be spoiled. Also, again, don't forget to sign your comments, I thought we already went through this.

Pauolo (talk) 01:02, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Edits on that talk page are months old. Testxyz (talk) 01:43, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Sinclair Solutions
To answer your question about Sinclair Solutions, those packs were not for sales. They were offered for participants to the Home Consumer Reward Program, to be tested for Ryan Industries. The one we see in the multiplayer apartment was containing all the stuff we begin with at Rank 1 in the multiplayer game. Still yes bootleggers were selling their home-made genetic stuff, like Jamie Byass in Siren Alley or even Doc. Hollcroft since he used ADAM in his Cure-All formula (probably to maintain ADAM addiction if not generate it). That's why we see sometimes messages about "Splice safe" or "Trust our quality."

Also where did you get that Sinclair was in the pharmaceutical business on the surface? I don't recall seeing this anywhere.

Pauolo (talk) 13:22, October 13, 2013 (UTC)

Sinclair - pharmaceuticals ...

I remember seeing it somewhere. Possibly its from the Novel  (but in the game we do get this The Vita Chamber ) showing Sinclair is not a lightweight in the technical stuff)

Testxyz (talk) 14:26, October 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * At this point in the first game, Sinclair was more a reference to Scott Sinclair, IG's art director (also with Sinclair Spirits). Still yes I believe the guy is smart enough to understand how Vita-Chambers work or anything related to his investments. Still his involvement in their conception is pretty much weird, but then he may have been tasked to take care of the testing once they were finalized.
 * Now about the novel, I've checked with the search function on amazon.com then on my own copy. It is indeed mentioned he invested in pharmaceuticals but not specifically at the surface (p.119). Also same page mentions he didn't know exactly on what Tenenbaum was doing researches (her early work on ADAM). Still, would Sinclair risk getting Ryan on his back when he was his main client, both for detaining citizens in secrecy and conducting field testing for Ryan Industries? Sinclair knew how to make a nickel or too, but he was not suicidal.
 * Another thing, the book mentions Sinclair Solutions had labs before Fontaine started his business, and that they employed Tenenbaum without a definitive contract.
 * Pauolo (talk) 15:32, October 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sinclair was already rich when he came to Rapture and Pharmaceuticals was a real world way of making that happen (and at that time plant-based chemicals were a large source - something you really didnt have premade sources for in Rapture -- but Sinclair could using his previous experience/know-how with plants bring them to be cultivated - and useful modern drugs would be something Ryan would want for 'self-contained' Rapture).   His having Pre-ADAM labs Tenenbaum worked in meant Sinclair probably was already was working in the medical (drugs? anti-biotics?) field....


 * Ryan actually had regard for proper competition ( Offer a Better Product  ) so Sinclair also being in the ADAM product business probably would not make him Ryan's enemy (even better if Sinclair could figure out how to make the ADAM stuff safer)  Ryan had all the rest of Rapture and his businesses to worry about.  Sinclair might develop/market something different on his own (via his 'Think Tank' - Selling Ryan Short)  or if it was too big, sell it to Ryan who had 'deeper-pockets' and who wanted to outdo Fontaine.


 * Remember the ADAM industry was big with alot of different people/companies working on many different projects/products. So it would be highly likely Sinclair would not know all of what Tenenbaum was working on (particularly if it was something Fontaine wanted kept secret).  Ditto for Suchong.


 * BTW - the The Vita Chamber is a different technology, and remember Ryan himself was a technical genius  (power systems, etc...), so his know-how tied in with Alexander's/Suchong's/Sinclair's might have produced an exclusive product seperate from ADAM which could  compete with it and Fontaine  (and maybe was planned as a way to alleviate ADAM side-effects).   We saw them deployed all over the place, so they must have worked and been in demand by consumers.


 * I will have to go back and read the Novel again.  Those pages (p119) paint Sinclair in a better light than is portrayed in many parts of the game - he is more mindful of 'civilized' conventions - lines that he wouldnt cross, and that people would (in Rapture) be held responsible for their actions - which is a major balancing component of the philosophy Ryan had.


 * Testxyz (talk) 01:15, October 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Still, nothing in the game indicates if he was that much involved in the Plasmid business. Sadly, the series do not explore the possible competitors for Fontaine Futuristics and Ryan Industries, and advertisements don't show any other name than theirs. Still yes, the way Sinclair handled those tests both at Persephone and with the Consumer Reward Program show he already had experience with the pharmaceutical market, or maybe that he also used to conduct tests prior to Rapture.


 * ADAM was not just a successful business as we recently discussed it, so I don't think he would have worked with Sinclair if the guy was double-crossing him. Also, Ryan Industries was providing Sinclair Solutions with experimental products for testing. If Sinclair had those (like Aero Dash, Geyser Trap and Houdini) sold on the market under his brand, he would have been the first suspect to think of.


 * I agree Vita-Chamber may have been in used at least some time before the events of the first BioShock. The one at Adonis with its own area suggests that. Also, I remember there are two of them at the Smuggler's Hideout, which is a bit odd. If the cave remained hidden to Ryan's forces all this time, then they must have been finalized before Fontaine's fake death but then neitehr Suchong or Alexander would have not worked under Ryan at that time, or were installed by Ryan's men after they stormed the place, which doesn't make more sense. Another possibility is that Wilkins and the remaining smugglers who barricaded themselves at the Fisheries stole them.


 * Sinclair was a smart opportunist, but in the end he wasn't as much a monster as Fontaine was or Ryan became. Ending his life in BioShock 2 really saddened me, mostly because he was asking us to do it, though the irony made him into one of the monsters he once helped creating.


 * Btw, something completely unrelated but I'd advise you to only edit the wikia only in source mode. The other one is maybe easier to use but a way buggier, and can generate lots of unnecessary spaces between paragraphs.


 * Pauolo (talk) 06:41, October 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Remember that Anti-biotics were the latest things in world medicine around the time Rapture started  and alot of the advertised ADAM products were medical related (I hadnt heard of Phossy Jaw before seeing one for curing that). So there probably were very many different/specialized  products of just that kind (we never got the name of the one(s) Steinman used for his surgery).
 * Also the industrialists/technologists/scientists/engineers also had skilled staff which many may have brought with them to Rapture (So Sinclair didnt do it all himself, but it sounded like he could understand all the very technical stuff).  No doubt like Silicon Valley as the industry expanded many would form their own companies off good ideas they got while working for others.   So I dont think Sinclair would have 'double-crossed' Ryan, but would keep any additional business of his own seperate and might take opportunities in niches which Ryan ignored.   Count how many Plasmids/Tonics were in the Gatherers Garden and think how many more there likely were (and how many may still have been being developed/researched).  One just to get rid of migraines or hangovers might have outsold all the rest.


 * Vita Chambers were everywhere even in very poor/strange places (Save & Load mechanism, but still there so its Canon).    Smuggler Hideout also had a Pneumo Kiosk -- Fontaine was alot like Capone and probably had all kinds of people bribed or 'looking the other way'. He could probably get anything he wanted for the place (and the fact that they (Vita-Chambers) were there means they probably worked in a useful way for peoples 'revitalization').   The simpler function was already there (more energy - feel better) but Suchong/Alexander/Sinclair might have later been brought in (again?) and were expanding on its abilities (to do the more difficult (near) 'back from death'  function).


 * BD = 'monsters' or just misunderstood ?   Actually possibly like the Handymen, the Big Daddy thing may have been sought by some of the disabled people (they (BD) also predated "Protectors" as maintenance workers -- probably replacing 'human' divers in what in RL is very dangerous work - diving to extreme depths).   Think of someone criminally insane (and alot more of THOSE later after ADAM comes to Rapture) or even mindless vegetable.   Under Ryans Objectivist (variant) philosophy there is no death penalty (except for treason), so do you warehouse them at public expense for the rest of their lives? (if violent you burn their brains out with lobotomies/electroshock like they did in those days in the Real World).  So making them into BD and having them do useful work for the City doesnt sound so horrible.  We really dont know how much personality/will/consciousness  the BD may have retained (we have hints that they did).   The story goes, they then needed more of them to guard Little Sisters and that caused more questionable 'volunteers' to be used.
 * Personally I would have instead brought all the city's corpses to well-guarded  Little Sister Fortresses (heh, recycling reward for turning in corpses -- double bonus is keeping the streets clean).
 * Testxyz (talk) 08:29, October 14, 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone besides me tried out the new respawning area that I found not too long ago? Let me know if anyone has. ZanyDragon (talk) 02:45, November 1, 2013 (UTC)

Recording
Man, oh Man. If only I knew how to record from the Xbox 360, then I could show you visually. ZanyDragon (talk) 03:10, November 1, 2013 (UTC)

You seem to have put your talk on the actual page by mistake. It's on the Graveyard Shift page. ZanyDragon (talk) 17:37, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

Oops - fixed it..... Testxyz (talk) 11:06, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

BAS Cohen jumping the gun?
BAS - I understand why they would use Cohen again (very popular char from first game ...)

But having him at the time of the Kashmir Incident murdering people publicly (before order fell apart ALOT more by the time Jack shows up) is just too limited-skill fiction. Dumping his rejected art models  into a vat of purple pudding (alive)  would be more 'artsy' and then heaping witty ridicule upon them ("Get out of my sssight YOU uninssspiring dregssss ! ! ! ") would have been more imaginative/proper for the context.

Why would Cohen know where Sally is ?? (heh, 'twist' would be Sally is one of Cohens 'plaster-pieces' by the time they find her...)  Why arent Booker and Elizabeth horrified by the outright murder of two people, or even of Kidnapping of children??? (Rapture hasnt gone-to-hell quite yet...  All that talk of things being 'back to normal'...)     Was this whole DLC plot all just the first ideas they came up with, scratched on the back of a Denny's napkin?

People dont like being murdered and the City Constables would be round to lock ole 'insano' up right quick. Possibly this is yet more evidence of this not being 'your fathers Rapture' and some bizarro alternate inhabitted by a Booker and Elizabeth which flipped a different quark somewhere down the infinite line ???

Testxyz (talk) 08:33, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Are we SURE the dancers at Cohen's were murdered? Certainly they were electrocuted, but so were Booker and Elizabeth & they turned out OK. Maybe they were just knocked out.

Unownshipper (talk) 07:55, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

They also were hanging from those cords/ropes, but yes it is possible it was done for effect by Cohen (certainly outrageous enough --- as  'performance art'  and missing a commentary on the low quality of dancing accepted  'these days'.)   Some hint, like them (the two other dancers)  being pulled upto the ceiling like puppets in the background as Booker/Elizabeth are wilting from their 'shock', might have been clever.

Testxyz (talk) 08:01, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

Thanx Mate
thanks for the permission to use your map mate i kinda dont like my original idea im thinking i might just reajust it useing your map as a reference. thanx agane. 15:53, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

May i Ask for Your Assisstance??
i am recreateing my Bioshock 3 game to an extent the 2nd and 3rd level are basicly the same just more thought through and the 1st level is revamped, also futher on i will add new levels some theimed on your Metro Map as you know but i was wandering, seeing as you have comented many time on my ideas, if youcould look at the levels and tell me what you think of them so far i have done BioShock 3: Level ONE- Abyss OverLook (bassed on you map) and Level TWO- Medusa's Stare ?? let me know if you interested in helping with this just leave any comments about htem on the blog comments section and ill read them. this will help me alot :) let me know if you whant to do this (i dont mind if you dont want to im cool with that).

UPDATE

I have finished the basic walkthrough for level 4 of my BioShock 3 game Artemis Zoo.

if you interested in checkiing it out let me know what u think P.s if you do not want me to update you just say so however if you do want the updates i will continue to do so. :)

I noticed the words "Tin soldiers don't fight wars...Men do" was written above the entrance to the rotunda. Y ou know, the room with the timeline. Could you or someone else upload an image of that, please? ZanyDragon (talk) 02:48, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Can you tell me where from they uploaded the audio files for the Audio Diaries and Voxophones? ZanyDragon (talk) 23:34, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

Andrew Ryan & Frank Fontaine
Regarding your recent edits to the Frank Fontaine page:

It's great that you defend Andrew Ryan (God knows someone should). He's a complex and interesting figure (even if he is made up) and all too often players simply see him as a villain since he's the main antagonist for the bulk of BioShock. Even the game designers have him make some illogical, counterintuitive choices so that they can "make him the bad guy," but I guess that stuff happens when you create a character to embody a concept rather than represent a normal human being.

However, I don't think it's right or fair to write Fontaine off merely as an evil troublemaker and Ryan as the put-upon leader who has to make tough/necessary decisions that overtime are looked upon poorly.

It was out of pride that Ryan set up a system where a figure like Fontaine could and did flourish (a place with no rules where the smart/strong thrive) and then, when Fontaine got under Ryan's skin, he instituted a series of rules to pull him back in. You can look at either character as good or bad depending on your want. The game makers intentionlly made them so one could be viewed as in the right/ the other as in the wrong.

Ryan undeniably engages in a fair share of hypocrisy & megalomania while Fontaine dickishly watches the world burn around him. Despite how we feel towards the characters, we should strive for balance in writing on them.

For these reasons, I don't think it's right to rewrite Fontaine's page to make him so villainous when you've rewritten Ryan as such a victim of circumstance. You could argue that Fontaine is an admirable figure (he started from nothing, rose to the top of society, exposed the insincerity of the patriarchy [Ryan], and outwitted his greatest enemy) and that Fonatine is the personification of the punishment Ryan should receive for his hubris.

I don't, but one could

Unownshipper (talk) 05:10, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Andrew Ryan & Frank Fontaine
Its unfortunate that because of the 'twist' thing that they (the game's writers) decided to paint Ryan as an 'evil meanie' so that you would have empathy to follow Atlas -- as a setup for a betrayal (and much of what you know about Ryan is from Atlas or Ryans detractors). Ryans death happens and then the focus moves away, not  really explaining much more about Ryan (as Ive said many times - Its a Shoot-em-up game - they have no need/priority for it to make sense or be cohesive).

Fontaine actually tells us what a bastard he is and his basic motives (he talks about actual acts and not just his philosophy). He's the ultimate individualist who doesnt care about building anything (or destroying/murdering others), except as a framework to steal/take from others  -- the real  'parasite' Ryan was fighting to eliminate/suppress, at least in His City.

I suppose you could paint it as a 'game' for Fontaine - a murderous destructive game - he's a sociopath. Not exactly the kind of person anyone sane wishes to control society. Can he really be put in some better light ?? What 'circumstance' could Fontaine have that justifies what he was.

Was Fontaine in ANY way actually a liberator??(read his own words about his many deceits)      Just an 'Opportunist'? No, opportunity ends when it involves stealing from and murdering others. Wasnt Fontaine the tycoon OK with Ryan, and then Fontaine the known Criminal no longer OK ?

Pride? Or simply attempting to undo the poisons he saw afflicting society (actually returning to things that once did work)

Ryan at least understands that civilization is based on cooperation (his Great Chain), but also on individuals being able to exceed the doings of the largely mediocre herd (through self-interest) and so indirectly open opportunities for the rest (thats the history of our modern world). He actually expected he might have some problems with people adjusting away from the way things operated 'on the surface' - even with the pick of people he allowed in. He trusted that the benefits of his philosophical system would win in the end - that THEY if anyone can would take responsibility for themselves if forced to it - not just demand/take sustinance handed to them by others - the ultimate surrender of 'free will'.

A man with some kind of ethics (Ryan) has to fight to stay within them, while a man who doesnt (Fontaine) has a much easier time. The game in places somewhat illustrates the battle within Ryan as to what lines he crosses(and when)  to save his City. But thats in Audio Diaries (from Ryans point of view and possibly only what he can admit to himself and what HE believes to be true) and not an actual authorative narration (which you can usually assume is all truisms). Also the progression of him not knowing what is going on  (when WE see the overview) has a way of making him look faulty.

Thats actually an issue with trying to extrapolate anything from the Audio Diary source (we in turn getting explanatiion given by someone with unknown quantity of knowlegde/ignorance  and some interpretation from a particular biased viewpoint.)  Again not an authoritive narration, just a clue, which itself can be not just misleading, but completely false. Even as many as they had for the game, for us to interpolate between them, its full of gaps (even if they reflected the truth).

I use the term 'war measures' so much - because things change drasticly under that situation, a time when normalcy ends and very hard decisions have to be made. Neccessity is not hypocrisy. Most of the players possibly havent a clue historically what 'war measures' even is. Ryan made similar decisions that FDR and Churchill had to make and he is labeled/impugned as a tyrant for it (and by characters who should (if they were real)  have had a better understanding, as they had recently lived through such times themselves). Rapture is a sad wreck - yep, Ryan did that, cuz Atlas tells us so. Again, we hear from few Ryan supporters for a contrary view. We arent really told what an amazing place Rapture was before Fontaine/Atlas went to work on it.

Some of the problems I have tried to resolve  -- Ryan was an Industrialist who dealt with people/institutions/laws  and KNEW how things operated. They make him look like an idiot for many of the decisions they contrive for him, even to the way he allegedly has set up Rapture (there is much we never get details on). Again it appears a situation designed 'to fail'. It could have been done alot more believably even assuming that destiny.

Fontaine is Capone, but not Capone in that Capone knew he was an operator within the boundries of society and if he stepped outside that he was done. Fontaine wants it all and manages to be trapped in his own scam. He had the resources to take Rapture's knowledge (ADAM etc) and go to the Surface and become that 'big man' industrialist, but no he suddenly is too limited to do what he could so logically do (Bathyspheres locked? he has submarines - you mean he didnt secrete a few when he was planning his new Atlas scam ?). He suddenly also becomes as stupid/inept as Ryan is portrayed - for the plot.

They paint Ryan as such an extremist (its easy, its just words they write) against philathropy/altruism, when his own belief in 'freedom' should mean that anyone should be able to help someone else AS LONG AS its with their own money and not impose it on others. (private welfare would have defused the 'poor worker' problem so that was OUT). Ryan was against 'altruists' - those who force altruism on others for their own gain. He tries to eliminate the isntitutions than are used to force altruism on people.

The funny thing is that Rapture itself was a huge act of philathropy/altruism on Ryans part, to create such a place of opportunity for Others at his own huge expense (he's already so rich that additional wealth/power should not be the motives for building such a place). He could have quit the doomed world and built a one-man paradise for himself and sufficient sychophants.

Ryan really doesnt get much help (the plot forces that). His fair weather supporters conveniently never really give him much useful advice (or any we are allowed to hear)  and instead betray him (McDonaghs actions are some of the dimmest decisions - to have him somehow trust Fontaine or Atlas and be ignorant of what them controlling Rapture would likely mean). Ryan is alone. He isnt even given logical decisions in many cases ('logical' as being from who he was supposed to be and went thru to be who he was).

He vets the people who come to Rapture, but a collectivist like Lamb gets a pass, oh so conveniently.

Workers conveniently get 'out of work' when that was expected to happen (it would be part of the city's plan). They should probably been told they would HAVE TO find new jobs - people in the real world have to do that all the time (and Ryan should have known  and had contingencies for it, except, NO, he doesnt). How many 'poor workers' there really were also wasnt made too clear (and most would NOT be skillless laborers with no potential for countless other jobs). But construction suddenly ends, boom, and countless workers are on the street with no savings or owned houses or working spouses or job prospects. What fraction of the population and fraction of these 'workers' actually were poor? But then, Rapture weathered THAT economic distress and recovered (things balanced themselves).

Malcontents and lazy people exist in every society, and Ryan at least gave them an opportunity of freedom, unlike most places in the world (even toiday). They also can make alot of trouble if they are allowed to - disrupting the economy and threatening public safety  (notice though they had to be armed with Combat Plasmids to actually get anywhere). In the old days it wasnt politically incorrect to call someone a 'bum' if they actually WERE a bum (and most people understood that - in those days).

So add the game catering to players (pushing their buttons intentionally - for the plot) who are largely ignorant of how people at the time actually would understand the events the game portrays (differently than their context of todays world/society).

Along comes ADAM, which  overrides all social control mechanisms Ryan may have counted on. (Think what it would do to our oh so caring 'better' society). The economic distress was caused  not by HIS system failing (a previous Recession was handled after all ),  but it was being manufactured by Fontaine/Atlas (call it Terrorism and murder intent to destroy order)  and the story forcing inept/unlikely non-handling of it by Ryan.

The earlier Smuggling thing would NOT have been covered up for so long in a place as small as Rapture, and the poison ADAM was could have simply been banned (by public outcry alone) as an obvious health risk).   SO the people of RApture are stupid also.  The 'law' system worked with the Smuggling problem (eventually), but society it couldnt handle war being declared from inside using ADAM monsters (and remember Rapture was no police state, hardly had police force at all - actually that was the thing that allowed Fontaine/Atlas to do so much so fast - assuming police with guns could counter Combat Plasmids).

And this whole 'there is no law' crap. How do you have a commercial society of the level of a modern city without ANY laws -  with no  enforcement or arbitration or  courts ?? (Fantasy land... again 'for the plot' or we are just not told those things are there as they would need to be - would make Ryan and his libertarianism sound less crazy to the typical player). What a major rigged setup for failure for any society (for the cardboard cutout dystopia, the slaughterfest game requires...).

But no, Ryan initially does nothing (even after teh problems grow rediculously)  waiting for society to handle it all itself -- and is blamed for that. And when he DOES take action (now labeled as breaking his own philosophy - which really is only partially specified), he is then blamed for that too. Or rather thats what they present to you. Actually the majority of people there would have continued to support Ryan (they came out of WW2 and understood about strong measure needing to be taken) - unfortunately we hardly hear from them in the game (the 'Ryan is Bad' plot setup strikes again). We simply are given partial facts steered by the 'twist' BS.

So all in all Ryan was an illogical (at least in for any reality) pawn denied the tools he should have had and was made to make stupid moves.

The Novel author mustve picked up on that situation and tried to fill in some details to explain things more, but was still restricted in having to deal with 'facts' from the game.

So how else could Ryan be interpretted ?

A ego-maniac running his own kingdom? He seems to bend over backwards to not do that and he could have built the place much simpler/cheaper/enforcible if that were his intent. He sure took his time stepping in to counter those who were working against him. No laws, yet he was awfully concerned with following due process against those he saw as 'his enemies'. Fontaine and Lamb would have murdered Ryan at the drop of a hat in Ryans position.

He went crazy? Him killing himself like that when he was actually winning ... (illogical and a missed opportunity for a REAL twist of HIM faking his own death too....). Did he become a super rich industrialist giving up at a setback??

Why didnt he just blow Rapture up for real or wasnt he competant to do that one thing? Virtually hand it to Atlas/Fontaine -- why? So now he's inept too? Crazy doesnt equal inept. He figured out what Jack was - easy enuf to nullify Jack and deprogram him later. He could have drowned his City bit by bit to 'get Atlas', he didnt. Why not if he was finished with it or IT was finished (burn down the forest...) ? "The Hephaestus Hermit" sounds like what? Ryan is sitting doing nothing? A city doesnt run itself, thats his command center, he has to keep the City running/alive (nobody else is going to...) if he's going to rebuild it. The survivors have to be fed, given air and water and heat. His WYK wall, looks like he had people busy gathering data for him to piece together that puzzle.

Wars do change people, but his 'war measures' could be undone when it was over (as they largely were in the US) after he saved the City HE built (made happen). ADAM and Splicers - find a cure. Population depleted -  bring in more. Betrayed and 'Hopeless' - get more supporters. People want to leave - comeup with an amnesia tonic and dump them out into the surface world they deserve. Rebuild. Pheromones stealing free will? - dont use them anymore and get rid of the ADAM and it doesnt work any more. He seemed to still be sticking to his 'principals' at the end even as dim as the plot progression was.

Great men overcome setbacks. Small men never would have built Rapture (or our modern world).

So it really wouldnt matter if Ryan was George Washington. The game said he had to be 'the bad guy' and fail, so he was.

Even Great and Misunderstood (an interpretation from between the lines/vagueness we are given), the deck was stacked rediculously against him.

Fontaine was just one of the 'parasites' Ryan  warned of.

Testxyz (talk) 07:55, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

Continued:

 * I regret that this response is coming so long after our initial discussion, but I felt underwhelmed to reply at first. It seemed like you didn't consider the points I made in my initial comment. I absolutely did not wish to defend Fontaine; rather, I wanted to assert that it's unfair to state that either he or Ryan are either worse or more redeemable than the other in the end.


 * I certainly don't wish to argue with you or seem hostile in this response as you often present an enlightened take on the BioShock series and I, and many others, appreciate that. With respect and if I may be frank, your given resonse is an unsatisfying one considering your normally open-minded, rational critiques.
 * In your extermely long response, you seemed to indicate the entire population of Rapture was stupid when they didn't follow the most logical response and that Ryan's mistakes weren't his own, but were the fault of the game designers. I'm sorry but that seems like a cop out. The human race isn't logical and even the smartest, most well-intentioned person can take part in illogical decisions; consider Hitler's rise to power, WWII, McCarthyism, Stalinism, Vietnam, etc.


 * The initail founding of Rapture is awe-inspiring, but Ryan's neglect (Offer a Better Product, The Market is Patient, and Great Chain Moves Slowly) after bringing a collective of hyper-ambitious, brilliant business people together and freeing them of morality set the stage for individuals like Fontaine to wreak havock (the whole venture is summarized pretty well by Sofia Lamb in The Requirements of Utopia). He's a truly marvelous businessman and philosopher, but a lousy politician/leader when it counts as he didn't seem to have a back up for "what if people don't fall in line?" A great leader could have prevented the factors leading up to the Rapture Civil War.


 * Killing, theft of property, hypocrisy, enslavement (Fontaine of Jack and Ryan of the many citizens of Rapture) - all narcissistic, psychopathic tendencies which are exhibited by both Fontaine and Ryan.


 * As for the Audio Diaries, throw out the ADs from the POV of Ryan detractors or Atlas' comments over the radio and Ryan still provides enough rope to hang himself by his own words via his Audio Diaries. Fontaine Must Go, Desperate Times, Marketing Gold, Pulling Together, and (the most telling) Mistakes all have Ryan implicate himslef as a paranoid, greedy, and power-hungry (and I don't buy the "he wan't in his right mind" theory for when he was recording some of them).


 * Also, throw out the submarine attack in the Smuggler's Hideout, I think players have made an impression of Ryan beforehand based on him sending Splicers to attack in the Transit Hub and the ransom placed on Jack in the Eternal Flame Crematorium.


 * In the ende, it's just as much a game to Ryan as it is for Fontaine; Ryan wants to win at all costs no matter how many of his own rules he has to break. Fontaine is an evil guy, but to claim that Ryan isn't as well is inaccurate.


 * With respect,
 * Unownshipper (talk) 07:06, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

Andrew Ryan & Frank Fontaine (cont)
Do not worry about 'offending' me with hard (hostile??) arguing, both sides have to be heard to make a proper argument and much evidence is needed and explanation is required for a complex subject.

Again we have a problem with so much being vague and half-explained within the game. But then this isnt a novel and the priority for the game company is a FPS game and making money and staying in budget.

"you seemed to indicate the entire population of Rapture was stupid" -- or just not logical/realistic. Real people with real consequences dont jump at every fad wholesale. An awful lot of people on hearing about the side-effects of ADAM would say 'thats not for me' --- convenient that ADAM nastiness  took so long for it to manifest (cuz da plot), when in reality a few(many?) early abusers becoming-crazy/dying/murderous would have been BIG  front page news (remember journalists are competing too) and in 'normal' Rapture people would worry if it is safe for their children to go 'out in the streets' -- its not some 'victimless crime'. Ryan would be concerned (it disrupts business/public order - its not just some issue of personal choice any more) and when the public came to him to do something he would probably act on that mandate OR the other people in Rapture (element missing in the game) would do something themselves -- they dont much  mention thats part of the system Rapture operates under, do they?? A big enough public outcry and they burn down Fontaine Futuristics? and/or denounce Fontaine for selling poison and pressure stores to NOT sell that poison. Like in the novel (the grocer incident)  some grieving parent or relative (or some guy who's looks have been destroyed)  goes after Fontaine to shoot him in the face... But no, all that realistic stuff from a living operating community is avoided/omitted/ignored.

We also havent a clue (not really mentioned...)  how much ADAM you have to imbibe to start suffering the effects (or if its so addictive BEFORE you face starts falling off, or worse -- yet another thing to get those 'non-stupid' citizens to consider before wanting to Splice some more).

"most well-intentioned person can take part in illogical decisions; consider Hitler's rise to power, WWII, McCarthyism, Stalinism, Vietnam, etc."  -- except all those 'decisions'  by any well-intentioned are in reaction to people who were absolutely NOT well-intentioned. (you'd have to explain who/which/what decisions you consider were illogical)

"Ryan's neglect" --  read those Diaries and see how vague they are. We arent even sure at what point they were created. Also whats to keep the Citizens  from taking action themselves - Ryan says its not Big Governments job and under his (and Raptures) philosophical system its not - its Citizens empowerment. But what recourse have the Devs given the Citizens to use? Disputes come up and need to be resolved/arbitrated/order-restored, and Rapture (a whole city of People) is already 10+ years working under that (never mentioned system). But no, the 'Council' is nothing/powerless/gormless/rubber-stampers - yet with City operating that long they would have been called on continually to 'figure out' decisions-for/solutions to conflicts and priorities. So, the 'No Law' BS is another Game authors fantasy 'wave of the hand' forcing the dystopia ((( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave )))

"he didn't seem to have a back up for "what if people don't fall in line?"  

Or he did - it was called responsibility of the People. Peer pressure, local associations that have common agreements at least locally - they can have local  private police. There would be common 'mores' and 'understood laws' (the Social Contract between the citizens to be fair/lawful) stopping most citizens from becoming cheats/bandits/robber barons (especially where competition is not artificially/officially supressed) and they face retribution from other Citizens. And those who piss off too many of their fellow citizens find themselves indirectly (no violence neccessary) forced out-of-business/shunned -- via public awareness of the transgressions -- the Press 'doing its job'..., boycotts, etc... In such a small place (Rapture, even at 20000, is barely more than a 'town') it is hard to run away from such concerted actions. You (all these achievers who probably were still a minority of the population) also can stop well short of 'immoral' when the Surface worlds restrictions/interference are rermoved.

"rope to hang himself" --   Again, see how vague alot of the Diary statements are. Besides the point that he is talking about doing something (but no real details given...again) NOT pretending nothing is wrong. As with anything there is some point it is finally upto him since  (its written) the Citizens are incapable of doing anything themselves and the Council is incapable of doing anything, etc... He is now looking at the searching for solutions to the problems which HE is now forced to do -- AND STILL it  implies he is being held back by his philosophies limitation on "a Dictator".

Mistakes is supposed to be damning?? Doesnt it instead show that he knowns may have to adapt his philosophy (or implementation of it)  - isnt that what a viable organism does to survive?? As I mentioned before he foresaw a period that the City would have to work out and balance itself (getting riid of lifetimes of 'how parasites infested world works' from the population -- just ADAM is a rather trying 'seductive poison'  to have to face for ANY society.

"paranoid, greedy, and power-hungry"  -

'Paranoid - so Atlas was not out to seize Rapture (tell that to all the citizens his monsters murdered, and all the ones now looking for food and afraid because because of Atlas's terrorism.)  Is the state Rapture is now in a figment of Ryan's imagination? Greedy - so it wasnt his creation he was protecting? Seeking to end the danger to it? Defending his philosophy. Should he give it all up -- not valuable (he believed to the whole future of man didnt he??)

Power-Hungry - by taking direct action to counter the threat - manipulating the resources he had available? We never hear about much support from the Citizens (who ARE on the side of order)  who would back Ryan and not this murderous rebel who wants to bring The Surface type parasitism  - beside them knowing what 'revolutionaries' and usurpers  usually do to 'change' society  that doesnt agree with their agenda (they had recent history of Hitler, Mao, Stalin to understand).

And No I dont consider 'Ryan not being in his right mind' - it is more of : now after giving the Citizens/Council their chance and recognizing the full threat (which did develop over time), it is 'on to stronger methods' to make a correction (Plan B) and solve the problems imperiling Rapture.

"A great leader could have prevented" --   Which is my point - if he had been written to be able to do so. But no, most of the likely (and logical)  things he could do (including reinforcing the Citizenry to do it themselves) are blocked and prevented as it is written. The story would have been more complicated. But what they did write was to simply deliver a contrived setting for "Shoot the zombies (so its NOT mass-murder)  in the wrecked city, while happy 40's music plays."

"no matter how many of his own rules he has to break"  - except they are not 'his' rules, they are part of a philosophy which attempting to adhere-to causes lots of problems for Ryan. With all the 'bending over backwards' Ryan did, he obviously was still restricting himself and NOT  doing what someone who wants to "to win at all costs". Ive previously mentioned what someone more ruthless would have done.

"Killing, theft of property, hypocrisy, enslavemen" - look at what time these things happen (if you can figure it out)  -

Killing -- you mean the people who pretty much all betrayed him personally, many attempting to assainate him (lots others/enemies he just locked up - when he should have killed them too - thats the efficient way to do it)?? Hanging Smugglers (traitors)?? - but the secrecy thing is a whole nuther argument).    General killing -- it was 'war', wasnt it ??

Theft - you mean the city taking over to maintain production that would cause the 'cold turkey' city to explode if shutdiwn (or be run by Fontaines/Atlas's crowd - criminals and terrorists - yeah thats reeeeal bright McDonagh...)

Hypocrisy - yes, let parasites/sociopaths/murderers/terrorists Atlas/Fontaine win - dont compromise and adapt - just surrender... Remember -- 'War Measures"...

Enslavement of the population ? -- are we given much detail about what this so terrible freedom stealing Pheromone system actually does?? No, we are only (barely) told it mostly nullified Atlas's violent Splicers so that Atlas is basically now 'on the run'. ((((Again I say 'stupid' - Ryan immediately  offers a Bounty on Jack (1000 ADAM) but he hasnt (that we learn of) offered 10,000+ ADAM Bounty on Atlas??? Wouldnt it be likely that Atlas would have then been dead in mere hours if Ryan did that - even right at the start of the 'Civil War' -- if not later when Atlas was much more vulnurable (so yes 'made stupid' because he is SHOWN using that method in one case and NOT shown employing the very same tactic when it would be 100X as important to get results))))

"in the end"  - unfortunately Ryan was cut off (by his death) from any action of what he was going to do for Rapture AFTER  Fontaine/Atlas was dealt with. Just like a real war, where the 'war measures' imposed are ended,  things (for the most part) go back to what they were before. Ive mentions various other tasks he would need to take action on and he probably would have solutions for. (It would have been halfway 'fair' (and imaginitive) to have Ryan mention stuff like that in the Audio Diaries rahther than some vague hinted 'Rapture will rebuild' ).

"In the End" - it is a lifes work for Ryan (Rapture that is) and not a game. For Fontaine his lifes work is deception and stealing from others (people he thinks are stupid for 'playing within the rules')  -- a 'game' or a 'way of life' for him ??

"In the end',  Ryan was a builder (civilization) thwarted by a Fontaine a immoral destroyer(barbarian).

Testxyz (talk) 13:22, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

Bigoted Arcade Patron
Oh, Testxyz, if you happen upon the most recent talk in the Arcade article, that wasn't meant for you or for anyone else. It was how I would respomd to the mother who was scolding her son Fredrick just for kissing Irish girls. ZanyDragon (talk) 03:53, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

I hadnt seen it. But the Irish were making inroads into American society and politics in those years and there was alot of animosity from the 'establishment' types. Actually with hygiene of those days, it was every childs mother's concern that associating with the 'wrong type' might give them lice ... Besides the likelihood that they might become pariahs for associating with "!!Catholics!!",  etc etc etc. BTW even the very verbage you chose would mark you as one of  the 'rougher soft' whom anyone 'of position' simply didnt associate with or act like. People gotta remember - they didnt have TV/Movies to spread and somehow make popular all the crudeness we have today.

Testxyz (talk) 08:08, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

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