Talk:Kashmir Restaurant

BioShock 2 Cutscene Image
There seems to be this edit war going on whether or not to include this image from the BioShock 2 opening cutscene. Evans0305 and I believe it depicts the Kashmir Restaurant whereas Unownshipper and User 75.137.146.232 believe it only depicts the Adonis Luxury Resort and not the Kashmir. I'm the first to post here, so let me make my point:

Unownshipper pointed out correctly that the neon signs in the cutscene place the area within the Luxury Resort. However, the layout, color and furnishings in the room are reminescent of the Kashmir and the Footlight Theater. Furthermore, most of the patrons are wearing masks, and we know the Masquerade Ball took place at the Kashmir just before the 1958 New Year's Eve Riots (which also means that Delta likely died moments before the riots took place).

My idea is that the Kashmir and the Adonis Resort are both part of the same area, i.e. the Welcome Center, which is plausible since most passageways in both locations are blocked when the player navigates through them. It'd also fit with the upper-class venue theme common to both. What do you guys think? --Willbachbakal 14:53, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say that's plausible; unlike the other areas of Bioshock 2 (such as Pauper's Drop and Siren Alley), Adonis does seem to be more "upper class" (like the areas of the first game, examples being Fort Frolic and the Kashmir Restaurant, as well as Arcadia). The name itself is even Adonis Luxury Resort. Heck, there's even an Audio Diary by Andrew Ryan himself there. Key of Destiny 15:09, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I get that there's a lot of flak for this image because it's located in Adonis, but there's a lot of connectivity that shows that not only was this scene meant to be the Kashmir, but that it was meant to be near and above the Adonis Luxury Resort:


 * Both Paulio and Gamesarchivist found that there was a different prelude to BioShock 2 that was more likely removed or altered, but still has its loading screens and sound files in the game (such as the radio broadcast message of the New Year's eve riots, and the recycled but unused Brenda and Charlie conversations from BS1). The screens show the pre-civil war locations of The Welcome Center, The Kashmir Restaurant, and the Transit Hub:

This prelude more likely relates to Jordan Thomas' original "Sea of Dreams" take on the game, which in one of its concept ideas, players were suppose to see a prewar Rapture through dream-like flashbacks, almost like the "ghosts" in BS1, but played more like the Little Sister's vision in the Outer Persephone level. This feature, along with other ideas, was edited from most of the game because they wouldn't allow for the Player to do anything but watch the events happen. Its more likely that since the Adonis level was listed as "Prelude-2", it could have meant either the Adonis was a 2nd prelude to the game, or there was a 2nd version of the prelude, or the video could have been meant to be a playable area leading to Adonis (much like BS1's prelude plane scene that had it as a level, and showed the passengers in front were just Breadwinners as fodder models).


 * Even though BioShock 2 had an altered version on some of BS1's areas, the Multiplayer level of the Kashmir shows that it is a possible sub-extension adjacent of the Kashmir from the first game, as shown by the Atlas Statue seen outside of the Silk Lounge (which in BS1, you can see there's a building facing next to that Kashmir Restaurant area). It also shares a lot of the same colors and patterns of what was seen in the video, and could also explain the additional signs near the area for the Adonis and Atlantic Express.
 * There was a similar case when Fort Frolic was originally meant as the entrance to Dionysis Park, so that could be the case with editing the Kashmir and Adonis.


 * Like Willbachbakal mentioned, the area of the Kashmir in the first game has blocked additional passageways that could go around or to the Adonis and/or the Kashmir locations. There's a 2nd floor below the Kashmir Restaurant that players can see a Toasty Splicer knocking at a door (which one of those doors could be suggested as the Adonis), and the added tunnels, which get blown apart by Jack's plane tail, show that there's a different route to the Adonis and the Kashmir ( or the Kashmir's 2nd building, which also explains the Multiplayer's version of the Kashmir having Securis doors). Speaking of which...


 * Jack's plane tail can be seen near the Adonis Luxury Resort, so why would that be there in BS2, especially specifically near that area? Evans0305 03:32, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the plane tail is easily explained away; if the Adonis Resort is, in fact, located in the Welcome Center, then it could have simply floated there somehow after the entire tunnel collapsed (the rapidly-flooding tunnel you have to cross through in the beginning of the first game). I agree; there were numerous blocked passages and doors throughout the first game; the door located on the incaccessible level (due to the elevator exploding and catching fire) could have easily led to the Adonis Resort. There's also a ton of wreckage blocking the other upward staircase in the Transit Hub, rendering that area unexplorable. Key of Destiny 13:50, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, since this discussion has mostly been devoted to arguments for why this could be the Kashmir, I'll play Devil's Advocate for why it almost certainly is not. First, let us consider all of the signs suggesting that the area is the Adonis Luxury Resort: the plaquard to the right of the Little Sister vent, the neon marquis outside the row of windows in the hall, and the sign above the staircase in the Transit Hub where Delta fights the Splicers (visible with high resolution versions). I find it highly unlikely that Delta would be in the Adonis to start out with, enter the Welcome Center by going into the Kashmir, and then be back in the Adonis by entering the Transit Hub.

Second, the restaurant where this party takes place doesn't match the architecture of the Kashmir from the first game. By that I mean that things are not arranged in the same spots they were in the original. For example, Delta goes through a door, enters the space, and is facing the stage. That door would have had to be in the space where the bar is in the BS1 Kashmir Restraurant, but there is no door there. Additionally, the hallway next to the stage is a long, open hall, but in the first game, there was a door and a sign for the Footlight Theater overhead. Lastly, in the Transit Hub, instead of the glass partition which surrounded the upper level, there is a normal railing which Delta leaps over to attack his enemies.

It's been mentioned that this space and the Kashmir have similar decor (especially because of the stage), but that doesn't mean they are the same. Also, the Masquerade Ball was celebrated all over Rapture, not just in the Kashmir. I'm willing to conceed the idea that this area is a redesign from the Kashmir from the Prelude, but in its final form it's a seperate place.

I submit that this is not the Kashmir Restaurant, but rather is some other restaurant or lounge in the Adonis Resort; possibly an unseen adjoining part of Demeter's Banquet Hall.

Unownshipper 03:29, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with all of Unownshipper's points above. We have lots of direct evidence that the cinematic took place in the Adonis, but we only have speculation that the Adonis Luxury Resort and Welcome Center were connected. The location of the Apollo Air plane tail makes a connection seem highly probable, but we don't know for sure. Therefore, I suggest just leaving the cinematic image out of this article. One image is really not a big deal anyway. ~Gardimuer   { ʈalk } 04:03, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd be inclined to agree, but I still think there's a simple way to verify this. The New Year's Eve Riots article indicates the Kashmir hosted the Masquerade Ball. Now, if the Kashmir was the only place to have done so, then the above image would represent the Kashmir without any doubt. However, if the Kashmir was only one of several venues to host the Ball, then the image shouldn't be added. --Willbachbakal 12:54, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I always figured that New Years Eve parties were celebrated in many places throughout Rapture, and masks were popular New Years attire that year, similar to how themed hats and glasses are worn in different cities all over the world on New Years in real life. The Kashmir restaurant was the main venue for the high-class New Years ball, but masks are so prevalent among the Splicer population in-game that they must have been very common, even for revelers who didn't attend the party at the Kashmir. ~Gardimuer   { ʈalk } 16:13, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Guests
A valid point Unownshipper, the brodcast is made by the devlipers andwas found on files in the game,  that should make it canon. But then again I dont see Langford and Suchong as "Party People" but the Steve Barker one is highly belivable.

untill we figure this out I will put the list here:

Known guests at the 1959 Masquerade Ball

 * Anna Culpepper
 * Brigid Tenenbaum
 * Daniel Wales
 * Diane McClintock
 * J.S. Steinman
 * Julie Langford
 * Silas Cobb
 * Simon Wales
 * Steve Barker
 * Yi Suchong

Shacob (talk) 21:18, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

Inside of the Restaurant BaS.
could someone use concole command and go out in the ocean and take o close up photo of what we can see from the inside of the restaurant or find the texture or something?

Shacob (talk) 20:53, February 13, 2014 (UTC) 23:29, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

Merely the Entrance

 * Mind_the_Gap.png

BS1 part looks like it is only the entryway/waiting area to the Main Restaurant, that upper section with  reservation desk, lower with a 'Cocktail Lounge' with very small 'bar' and kitchen and a 'Dancing' performance stage. Ive seen McDonalds with more table space than there, and much is also taken up by the big Atlas Statue. The blocked doorway labeled Foot Light Theater, if you use the cheats, has a gap between doors on far side where you could make a left turn and head up into the main Restaurant (something more like the MultiPlayer level). Ignore/discount the outside views as they were largely low priority filler. The immediate building around the 'Lounge' curved window are not there on the BaS1 view (nor the rocks and seabed in its immediate vicinity outside the lower floor). Most of the outside views are pretty dodgy and should not be relied on as evidence.


 * Path_to_Elsewhere.png


 * That's a perfectly fine theory (I think the skybox matches up with it actually), but there's no way to prove it. As for the McDonalds you visited, I'm sure it was bigger than the Kashmir, but that's a modern building and in Rapture space comes at a premium.


 * I'm not fully behind the idea that the backgrounds from game 1 don't matter. You know someone put effort into all the details in the game like the backgrounds.


 * Personally, I'd like it if the game designers paid attention to some of the discussions on sites like this and (in the next BAS or some other sequel that returns to Rapture) they would connect the Bio1 Kashmir with the KRMM exactly the way you indicated. Until that time, the Bio1 Kashmir is canon and the multiplayer map is a redesign like all the other multi maps.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 22:39, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * I like the exteriors too (though the artistic license gets a bit out of hand - dig those 60+ story skyscrapers) but they are caricatures.   Look (in BS1) directly out past the Kashmirs Atlas statue and less than 10 feet away is a building facade.  The other two sides (around that semicircle window) with some gaps likewise have tall buidlings directly adjacent (and rocks).  Compare that to the BaS1 view from main/market street where it sits all high and lonesome.   Its not a big deal as they also seem to have changed the 'space is at a premium' aspect a bit likewise to make it airy like Columbia.  I dont hold them to any accuracy as even just within BS1 or BS2 they recycle/reuse the skybox views (sometimes replicating the exact background texture (known as a skybox/skydome in the gaming industry) scene 4 times around the compass views within a building)

The Bomb


ones again Kashmir........

should we add the bomb to the history section. It was a really big part of the attack. not many people in the game refer the attack as an attack, but as an bombing. I just listened to the Audio diary by Diane MacClintock: New Year's Eve Alone, and the attack starts with a explosion. armed with guns, explosives and burst into.... " how do you run in with explosives? its not like they had time to wire bombs or shoot rockets of some sort in the restaurant, and you don't hear any other explosions in the audio diary then the one that cuts Diane off.

Reference to the bomb.


 * Diane McClintock  : New Year's Eve Alone :Silly enough to fall in love with Andrew Ryan, silly enough to... EXPLOSION


 * Grace Holloway : Closing the Limbo Room : "down the Limbo. Bomb goes off in that fancy place uptown, and everybody panics..."
 * This copy of Rapture Tribune:
 * Concept art for BioShock 2: (all do, its not sure if this is canon but they show the explosion)

as you can see it was the bomb that was the main focus of the attack...

I made this because someone didn't think the bomb was necessary to add in the page

--Shacob (talk) 23:22, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree, I know this was an area of contention before, but I think there's more than enough information to suggest a pre-orchestrated bombing effort. Where the bombs were planted (I still think one was set up in the Atlas statue) is not of importance so long as we add the details to the page.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 08:04, February 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * I also believe it was in the atlas statue, you can clearly see that it was blown up from the inside. btw do we have any evidence that the restaurant was held open after the attack? I don't see how it could manage to stay open after an attack like that, and there's still decoration from the new years eve party, they would have taken them down after the party in normal cases?

--Shacob (talk) 14:52, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Remember the Kashmir Incident was only the start of the "Civil War" and Jack doesnt show up until  at least a year later. Also the 'bomb' obviously in BS1 didnt do that much damage (strong ones blow things -even metal- to bits, and Diane MacClintock was only like 25 feet away). Bomb blasts also used as a distraction in an attack, generating alot of confusion while the people with guns shoot up the place, easier while the people inside are still stunned.

The bomb mess could be cleaned up and some business resume - the economy didnt instantly come to a stop. Remember the announcements telling people to go out and shop, goto Arcadia, and to the ball games to 'not let the bandits win' ... The kitchen in the BS1 'Lounge' area is not that large to operate in a lesser capacity and looked like it had seen recent use. If the BS2 MultiPlayer if that was the main restaurant then that also has a large hole blown in the floor between the kitchen and Lounge upstairs.pix

That Atlas statue also possibly could have been blown up later by Atlas's thugs in an act of terrorism. We dont exactly have the Jan  1 Newspaper stating that "The Atlas Statue in the Kashmir Restaurant was blown up in the attack on New Years Eve". An awful lot of things in the game(s) are vague on details.

75.36.138.22 20:05, March 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * A huge number of factors effect how much damage a bomb does. How large was it? What were the quality of the explosives? How exactly was it positioned? Did it have anything attached to it to direct the blast (a shaped charge)? You can't know how much or how little damage it did unless you had WAY more information. All that is known is the damage to the statue, the upper floor railing, and other parts of the restraunt. I don't doubt that the bomb was mainly meant for disorientation, but clearly there was some collateral damage that couldn't have been done by a simple firearm. Also, you don't know for certain where Diane was.


 * Most of these things are meant to be implied. It's stiff, self-conscious, and unnatural to have something explained in that much detail (it's spoon-feeding the plot to the player). Would you have preferred if Jack walks into Rapture and trips over an encyclopedia that summarizes every little detail of what happened in the past year or would you like to piece together the clues like an archaeolgist? The latter is more intriguing and more realistic.


 * You're assuming that the bomb happened and people immediately went back to the Kashmir? Think of Pearl Harbor or 9/11. People need a time to grieve, Rapture Security probably wanted time to sift through the rubble for clues, citizens would have been unlikely to want to return to the Kashmir considering how many of their friends and neighbors were killed there. Also, you're still basing this off the assumption that the Multiplayer Kashmir is canon.


 * Why would Atlas' followers blow up the Atlas statue after the New Year's attack? What possible purpose could that serve? Even as a show of force it seems incredibly unlikely and like a wast of effort and supplies, especially if the business had closed by then.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 23:12, March 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * "You can't know how much or how little damage it did unless you had WAY more information"
 * You can know plenty by what you (Jack) see there.  You dont have to be CSI and track every fragment to see it broke the statue, but wasnt big enough to destroy the windows or burn all the funiture or turn the people who were supposedly there into hamburger.


 * "You're assuming that the bomb happened and people immediately went back to the Kashmir?"
 * Months/a Year is 'immediately' ? We/Jack see it by BS1 time in 1960.  The place was relatively Intact and Brenda seems to have still been around, so why shouldnt she resume operating it.  We see so little of Rapture and likely anyone half normal and not out for the 1000ADAM Bounty is running the opposite direction from the madman who has come to Rapture and is shooting up the place.   Ryan himself may have had operation there resume to show the citizens that the terrorists were not going to win.


 * "it's spoon-feeding the plot to the player"
 * You mean like the contrived information sequence you are exposed to make Ryan out the evil tyrant and Atlas your friend?   Imagine if you had heard the Diana McClintock finding Fontaine Audio Diary (the one before she was likely murdered)  as the third one you found in the game.
 * Archeologists also often dont piece things together and sometimes it takes decades to decode what has been found long before.


 * "you're still basing this off the assumption that the Multiplayer Kashmir is canon"
 * Why not?, its actually in-game. (theres a trope for game addons appending additional info and the issue of it being canon or not).  The one in Bioshock 1 is a bit rinky-dink to be the  great Kashmir Restaurant - a bit puny for the 'Movers and Shakers' of Rapture to be at for their big party.  Might as well have held it at Demeter's.  The Multiplayer venue is a bit more like what would be expected for such a party.


 * "Why would Atlas' followers blow up the Atlas statue after the New Year's attack"
 * Terrorists blow up things as symbolic acts all the time.  Add ADAM insanity into the mix.  Atlas wants to ruin the economy and make people too scared to fight him.  SO the question should be "Why NOT blow up the Atlas Statue in the Kashmir?, particularly if that one was intact still and a place citizens still congregated.
 * "Un-signatured guest"


 * First of all, please don't bring up Bioshock 2 multiplayer Kashmir again... Me and Unownshiper came in to a conclusion that we will not add the "possibility" to the Kashmir instead we added it to the talk page of Bioshock 2 Multiplayers Kashmir there you can also see the whole argument.


 * Now for the bomb and the open times: Idle Thumbs had a broadcast with designer JP LeBreton that made a walk through of BioShock with commentary. off course he goes through the Kashmir and comments on many things and about the bomb:  he stands in front of the Atlas statue on the second floor and talks about the attack a bit and at the exact moment when he say "where a terrorist bomb exploded" he  points to the hole in the statue and later he says "in Kashmir the part with the blown up statue"


 * then he goes to the bottom floor and comments on the blocked door that leads to the Footlight was supposed to have a lot more bodies do to that during the attack the guest panics and ran to the doors at the same time trampling each other but they didn't include it doe to performers reasons. now if that's not enough proof, The thing that seals it is the new years eve decoration for 1959! if the restaurant was open they would have taken away the decoration.

check the videos out: http://www.twitch.tv/idlethumbs/b/322438377

--Shacob (talk) 19:48, March 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Something of a fallacy there Shacob. What you describe suggests that the bombing occurred and, but does not prove that it occurred during the attack.  Those New Years decorations were still around in 1960 and there would have been many casualties to the attack whether the bomb happened then or not.  There's no reason to include such a detail as part of the attack.  Certainly you can mention it as something that happened at some point, but saying it started the attack is too much speculation. The good news is that Burial at Sea may give us some clarity on this matter (Though if the attack directly proceeds after Fontaine's escape from the department store, a pre-placed bomb seems unlikely. 150.209.41.32 02:47, March 5, 2014 (UTC)