User talk:Solarmech

Welcome
Hi, welcome to the BioShock Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Booker DeWitt page.

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Feel free to ask an administrator or a featured user, or leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! Willbachbakal (talk) 16:54, May 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Questions?

Booker's heritiage and his actions at Wounded Knee.
It is fairly clear that Booker does have some Native American blood in him. His ability to speak Sioux is a huge clue, but there are others. But how much does he have? I look at Booker and I don't see any real trace of it. Nor any in Elizabeth. That makes it likely that any Native American blood is from a grandparent or great grandparent. Not really enough that he can be considered a Native American. Only that he is part Native American.

As such Booker should *not* be listed as being a Native American. But it should be noted that he has a Native American heritage, likely Sioux.

Booker at Wounded Knee One thing we have to remember about Booker's actions at Wounded Knee is that we really do NOT know anything more that what Booker says about it. And that was he enjoyed killing. Everything else from Wounded Knee is about COMSTOCK, not Booker. I know it makes the story a bit harder to understand, but Booker and Comstock don't came from the same "base" reality. Evidence for this is that Booker's eyes are green (Green eyes are VERY rare in Native Americans and most common in Europeans BTW) and Comstock's Blue. But eye color can change (but this is rare). There is 100% proof that they didn't come from the same reality. The Luteces. In Booker's reality Lutece is male. In Comstock's, female. If Booker/Comstock were from the same reality they would have to be the same gender. So we really don't know what Booker did at Wounded Knee. From his shame it's clear he was incolved in the killing, but there is no proof that he went as far as Comstock did. --Solarmech (talk) 08:02, June 5, 2014 (UTC)

A list articles and other source material that talks about Booker's Time and his world.
11 Bird's-Eye Views That Show How NYC Has Grown over 350 Years Shows how NYC has grown over time. Several pics of the City during Booker's time.

http://gizmodo.com/11-birds-eye-views-show-how-nyc-has-grown-over-350-year-1631890458

The Roosevelts

First episodes cover the 1890's and the future episodes will cover more. The Roosevelt family is from New York and Theodore Roosevelt was a Police Commissioner in New York City while Booker was in New York and probably would have had contact with him.

http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-roosevelts/

SNIP of off topic subject

75.36.138.204 00:17, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but this section is intended as just a listing of information about Booker's world and time. It is not intended for opinions and arguments. Feel free to create your own Talk Page. --Solarmech (talk) 09:20, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

Wounded Knee

These are a number of first hand accounts of what happened at Wounded Knee which scarred Booker DeWitt. It must be noted that the actions that Comstock claimed to have taken would have been nearly impossible given the situation (at least in this reality). Also this is not easy reading at times as what happened was very bloody.

"I Took Part In The Wounded Knee Massacre” http://www.ourfamilyhistory.biz/woundedknee.htm

"Lakota Accounts of the Massacre at Wounded Knee." http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/eight/wklakota.htm

"Massacre At Wounded Knee, 1890" http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/knee.htm

The Wounded Knee Museum http://www.woundedkneemuseum.org/

Photo's of New York City in the 1900's

(These pics were found by "David Sidwell" on the 2K/Irrational Games Forums)

http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-new-york-famous-nyc-locations-in-pictures-2011-11?op=1

A Birds Eye View of NYC in 1900 from the Library of Congress (This was also found by David Sidwell) http://www.loc.gov/item/81694155

A "zoomed in" version of the above pic showing about were "108 Bowery St." (Booker's Office) is located. Again by the great David Sidwell. http://oi57.tinypic.com/x3zwiv.jpg

The Columbian Exposition in Chicago http://www.chicagohs.org/history/expo.html

http://columbus.iit.edu/

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA96/WCE/title.html

A 3d simulation of the Exposition http://www.ust.ucla.edu/ustweb/Projects/columbian_expo.htm

Gangs and The Five Points. New York City has a very long history of large (over a 1000 members)and powerful gangs (Police would sometimes not even patrol parts of the city) in the city. In the mid and late 19th Century they often ruled an area known as the Five Points. This area was poor, run down and badly overcrowded. Basically a huge slum. (Think the lower parts of Finkton but worse) In the early 20th century they tore whole city blocks down in an effort to destroy the gangs. Booker in his early days certainly would have had jobs that took him to the Five Points.

History of the Five Points. http://www.nychinatown.org/history/1800s.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Points,_Manhattan

https://www.flickr.com/photos/amapple/5630172156/

Large Gangs in New York City. A few members of the Five Points Gang went on to (infamy) in the mafia. (Al Capone, Johnny Torrio and Lucky Luciano)

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/7-infamous-gangs-of-new-york

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Points_Gang

http://www.mobsters.8m.com/5points.htm

Movie Theater Rules from 1912 (6 images)

http://imgur.com/a/0OZYX

And now for something completely different. A number of song from the early 20th Century.

"Merry Oldsmobile" Billy Murray (1909) http://youtu.be/BFruHQJeaRg

"Shine on Harvest Moon" Ada Jones, Billy Murray (1909) (Had not realized this song was THAT old) http://youtu.be/WMh3K587oQc

"Come Away Josephine in my Flying Machine" Ada Jones, Billy Murray (1911) http://youtu.be/eFZDB6DqAnA

"A Bird in a Gilded Cage" Harry Anthony (1911) http://youtu.be/gEUmc5Uuwy8

"Meet Me in St. Louis, Louis" (1904) http://youtu.be/SI7EzG1cRa8

H.H. Holmes, Serial Killer from the Columbia Exposition

Holmes, considered America's first Serial Killer, operated in Chicago during the 1893 Chicago Exposition. He killed at least a dozen people, but killed have killed over 200. No one knows because he was very good at getting rid of the bodies. Here is more info about him and his Murder Castle where he committed his crimes.

http://harpers.org/archive/1943/12/the-master-of-the-murder-castle/

http://web.archive.org/web/20080611011945/http://www.themediadrome.com/content/articles/history_articles/holmes.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._H._Holmes

http://www.neatorama.com/2014/12/16/HH-Holmes-The-Monster-and-His-Castle-2/

Tenement Living in New York City

This is a great article on how people lived in Booker's time and how the city looked. There are a ton of pics and sketches with this article.

http://www.maggieblanck.com/NewYork/Life.html

Panic of 1893

1893 this was the start of the worst depression the United States had ever seen up to that time. 500 Banks closed, 15,000 business failed and unemployment doubled, if not tripled in the space of a year. This depression while not as bad as the Great Depression of the 1930's was still VERY bad. By October 8 of the year, the depression was in full swing and certainly would have contributed to Booker's poor financial state and his desperation, though it was not the cause of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1893

One thing one must remember is that at the time there were not many banking regulations and no FDIC protecting deposits, banks could and often did overextend themselves and engaged in questionable business practices. Things were not cleaned up until the 1930's and 40's.

Old New York: Mapping Historical photos from the NYPL

Just stumbled across this site called OldNYC (http://www.oldnyc.org). It has a TON of photos from at least the 1860 to the 1940's. There are a lot of pic from when Booker would have been there as well. They have a map of NYC and where the photo's were taken. But the only to find out the date is to look at the picture. But still some great shots of the city. Here are a couple examples. http://oldnyc-assets.nypl.org/600px/708760f-a.jpg (Street scene 42nd & 5th ave (1910))

http://oldnyc-assets.nypl.org/600px/708795f-a.jpg (Ground level view of street 42nd & 5th ave (1912))

http://oldnyc-assets.nypl.org/600px/712987f-a.jpg (Street scene 42nd & 5th ave (1913))

There is a resemblance to some of the buildings seen in downtown Emporia.

This Dieselpunk Shrine Hides a Century-Old, Fully Operational 800 HP Motor

Saw this story over at Gizmodo. There are a lot of pics and this generator and the equipment with it looks almost like it would fit in with the Siphon. Looks very cool. The start of the story:

"Close to the gorgeous towers of the Óbuda Gas Works, there is a humble, church-like brick building housing an amazing piece of engineering: a still-functional 103-year-old Sulzer diesel motor connected to a Ganz generator."

http://gizmodo.com/this-dieselpunk-shrine-hides-a-century-old-fully-opera-1748663235

Real Life Racism and White Utopia's

I know it's a touchy subject for some but this is about the level of racism that existed in the United States and other parts of the world at the time of BioShock Infinite. This really does show how bad things were and that the idea of a "white" controlled colony/utopia was something people actually TRIED to create. I know these are from Gizmodo, but they are still rather good.

First off is "Australia's Secret History as a White Utopia" http://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/australias-secret-history-as-a-white-utopia-1739916322 There are also connections to the USA.

"Oregon Was Founded As a Racist Utopia" http://gizmodo.com/oregon-was-founded-as-a-racist-utopia-1539567040

Child Cannery Workers in 1911

Lots of the kids (some as young as 5 years old) pictures have badly cut fingers from the work they are doing. Thank Goodness for Child Labor Laws. http://www.aol.com/article/news/2016/10/31/1911-the-knife-wielding-child-workers-of-maines-sardine-canner/21595086/#slide=4253335#fullscreen

Re: Ban Request
Thanks for the heads-up! I've banned the IP, so hopefully that particular user shouldn't be a problem again. --Willbachbakal (talk) 14:48, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

I've banned Tanzer for spam botting. Spamming blog posts about clothing is fairly common behavior for spam bots, and I think that particular ad got posted here before. --Willbachbakal (talk) 11:25, November 4, 2014 (UTC)

Onena is banned. Thanks for letting me know!

Also, you forgot to sign your post. :P --Willbachbakal (talk) 08:31, December 12, 2014 (UTC)

Holy crap, there are more ad bots here than I've seen on any other wiki. Congrats, and thank you for updating me regularly. This helps immensely in controlling any potential spam problems. --Willbachbakal (talk) 19:39, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure you listed the right IP address? I checked the contributions on the one you linked, and they're all messages in the talk section of a few articles. --Willbachbakal (talk) 16:28, February 28, 2015 (UTC)


 * I was under the impression that a ban included talk pages as well as articles. I apologize if this was in error. sm --Solarmech (talk) 18:28, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Thank You
Thanks so much for your kind words regarding my request for adminship, they're very much appreciated.

Unownshipper (talk) 07:16, October 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm an Admin now. Thanks again for your support. It's really appreciated.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 23:04, December 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * Your welcome. :)  sm Solarmech (talk) 16:13, December 13, 2014 (UTC)

Re: Bioshock 1 Good Ending Canon now
Oh Levine, you've done it again. The more I hear about Ken Levine, the more I'm disappointed. I have no real outright contempt for him, just a dissatisfaction with his viewpoints on different aspects of storytelling.

BioShock was critically acclaimed for its morality tale aspect. So for him to say "the game to me was about the meaninglessness of the choice" is just SO wrong; it almost comes off as nihilism. There's quite a big choice between using/killing a little girl to help yourself survive or delivering her from a nightmarish existence at great cost to yourself.

Anyway… So Levine personally chose the Happy Ending because of it's aesthetics. Let's ignore for a moment how him making public comments like saying the Good ending is the "right" one is (if you'll pardon the expression) "asshole-ish" as a game like BioShock should leave the course the narrative takes up to the players' choice rather than impose the will and viewpoints of a single individual (not the multitude of people who toiled to bring this game to fruition) like himself.

Ignoring that… it doesn't change the fact that multiple endings were made. A player's choice to end up with the Bad Ending are still theirs to make. All that matters is that Sally survived the BioShock series.

I don't feel like action is needed on our part. Though what we can do is leave a bullet point in the Behind the Scenes section on Fontaine (Level) stating that the events of Burial at Sea follow the Happy Ending.

What are your thoughts?

As for whether BioShock 2 can be counted as non-canon, I must strongly disagree. With each sequel there have been inconsistencies in details from the original BioShock (especially Burial at Sea). While there are some minor flaws in Bio2, NOTHING makes it non-canon, certainly not Levine's attempt to "Word of God" the ending.

Consider the Gossiping Splicers from the Atlantic Express (Level) who refer to Jack's actions:


 * Breadwinner: "I’m tellin ya, he’s up topside now highballin’ it with all the cancan girls, and if anybody gets lippy, pow, he’s got the bomb."


 * Baby Jane: "Nuts! He saved a whole kindergarten fill of cutesy little brats and went up happy ever after. He was a pansy. End of story."


 * Toasty: "You think I give half a squirt what he’s done? He’s gone now, and Doc Lamb's the news."

All that is clearly stated is that Jack is gone from Rapture. The designers were very careful to show that there are lingering questions and rumors from the actual events of 1960. Either the good OR bad ending could've occurred in this game, so I don't see Bio2 being any problem.

Unownshipper (talk) 00:23, January 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * I would point out that never wanted the morailty choice in BS1. That was "requested" by 2K. Also his "meaningless of choice" line is about the actions of the player in a video game and how the player is given are not real choices at all because everything you do is, including the choices you have and what happens when you choose them, are TOTALY controled by the game makers (The way you move, the weapons you have, what you hear, all totaly controled by someone else). He was not talking about real life, only video games. And he has been saying the bit about lack of choice far a looong time now.


 * I think a bullet point in Fontaine (Level) as well as a statement in Elizabeth is the least we can do.


 * As for BS2, there are some things in it that clash is BaS. Such as Fontaine having Steinman doing work on his face to make him into Atlas. BaS Pt2 makes it clear it just makeup (A shown in Fontaines' Panic Room). Also there is the problem that is seems unlikely that Elizabeth would allow the the cycle to start again. sm  Solarmech (talk) 10:57, January 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * I would have to disagree with you there. The morality choice comes from whether you abuse or free the gatherers. It seems from concept art that that was always part of the gameplay, Levine found difficulty in making the gatherer something innocent enough that the player would actually consider saving it (thus the journey from a slug to a dog-thing to a little girl). The multiple endings that reflect your morality choice appear to have been made at the request of the publisher.


 * My objection with him is that he regards the multiple endings as something negative that was forced on him. Yes, the goals a player is given are obviously controlled, but what I love about BioShock is that the methods by which you're allowed to take to reach that endgame are practically numerous.


 * Objective: Get past that Splicer.


 * Me: How shall I do it? Blow him to bits with my Grenade Launcher? Wait for him to walk by while I'm invisible? Hack that camera and let the Security Bots take care of him? Nah, I'll use Telekinesis! But what shall I strike him with? An oxygen tank? Too quick. A corpse? A little gross. A dining chair? Maybe. I know, I'll beat him to death with his own mask!


 * BioShock truly has a manipulative environment. You can interact with everything ! Be it a paintbrush or a Big Daddy, anything can be your weapon so for Ken Levine (of all people) to argue that you have no choice (relative to other games that have come before the series or since) is incorrect and just plain dumbfounding. Even if you're forced to march through the halls of Rapture by a madman, how Jack treats the Little Sisters is your choice to make.


 * I'm familiar with the "lack of choice" argument, it's plagued games studies for a long time. However, it seems to me the newer games (BioShock in particular) have taken great strides to where choice is no longer the illusion it used to be, and Levine was a part of that. At least BioShock and BioShock 2 attempted to show that different choices lead to different outcomes.


 * Sigh… So anyways, what did you have in mind for the Elizabeth page statement?


 * With BioShock 2, nothing in Falling Into Place suggests that J.S. Steinman gave Frank Fontaine plastic surgery. That's an idea from BioShock: Rapture (Novel). When he says "I've got a new face" he COULD be referring to surgery, but he COULD also just be being hyperbolic and referring to make up.


 * As for the stuff found in Fontaine's Panic Room, I unfortunately have to say "so what?" The cosmetics don't mean that his Atlas disguise is purely make up. What if he did get surgery and the cosmetics are used to cover his scars? What if he's not even USING the make up? He seems to be a bit of a pack rat. He's not disguised as a "Chinaman" in Rapture and yet he still has that costume, so what if the make up is for one of his other disguises on display in that room? Just saying, neither anything found in the Panic Room nor the Audio Diary Falling into Place effects the canon.


 * Let's just say it: Elizabeth is selfish. I love her character, but it's a major flaw of hers. She used Sally to findfuck Comstock when she could've just as easily walked into his office, shot him in the face, and left for Paris via a Tear. Her actions rescuing Sally enabled the escape of Atlas, the Rapture Civil War, and the deaths of THOUSANDS of innocent people. In Burial at Sea - Episode 2 the only thing she cares about is Sally's well being, wheher or not the the cycle starts again is irrelevant to her so long as Sally gets out safe.


 * Or let's just give her the benefit of the doubt, maybe the resurgence of the Little Sisters is beyond her abilities to prevent. After all, she has lost her powers, maybe she can't see/remember the events past 1960 in her mortal state.


 * Sorry for the lengthy reply,


 * Unownshipper (talk) 22:57, January 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Utterly missed my point about choice. You only have the options to kill or bypass the Splicer because the game maker gave you that choice. He gave you invisibility and without it you have no chance to bypass him. He gave you TK as a way to kill him. Most importantly, the very Objective to get past the splicer is given to you by the game maker. You are playing in a world were all the choices and objectives have been given to you. The only thing the player does is make minor choices on how they will acomplish goals set by the game maker. If the player really had choice, he could kill, bypass or talk to the splicer. He would also be able to find another way around the splicer, trick the splicer in some way, have somone else talk to or kill the splicer or even not have a thing to do with the splicer in any way shape or form. THAT would be some real choice.


 * It would actually be difficult for Fontaine to have had plastic surgery to become Atlas ahead of Ryan's raid that killed the double. Fontaine was a widely known public figure, he just couldn't vanish. And IIRC didn't Atlas show up before Fontaine was "killed"? Besides look at Atlas and Fontaine. I have and I do NOT see any real signs of plastic surgery. The only difference between the two pics is the hair, slighly bushier eyebrows on Atlas and a cleft in the chin (something easliy done with the proper makeup) Shape of eyes, nose, head mouth and ears are the same. I even layed one pic on top of the other and they matched very well. (BS1 pics)


 * As for Elizabeth, you read her incorrectly. Yes, she did use Sally, but then she realized she screwed up BIG TIME and went to fix it. But NOT only for Sally, but for all the Little Sisters. She died to fix her mistake and that is the very opposite of being selfish. Selfish would have turning her back on the situation as the Lutece's told her to do. Or she could have just used her powes to move Sally to a safer reality if she ONLY cared about Sally. From the interview:


 * To me, that’s a very positive story in a world of real violence. Usually, the violence and exploitation continues, but in Elizabeth’s case, it does not. (SPOILERS) Many people have expressed to me that Elizabeth’s death in Burial at Sea crushes them. But I think that if she didn’t make that sacrifice, the cycle would continue. She was willing to sacrifice everything to end that cycle.


 * So it was not JUST for Sally but for all the Little Sisters, to break the cycle. Also when Elizabeh made the decision to go back to Rapture she could still see Behind All the Doors. She should have checked to see what would happen.


 * As for why Elizabeth went after Comstock the way she did, you have to recall she is not in the best mental state at the end of BSI. Surivors Guilt, PTSD, guilt about killing Booker are just a few of the mental issues she was facing. Not to mention the memory of being of Anna bieng *decapitated*. It's a small wonder that she isn't totaly insane. Elizabeth wanted Comstock to know why he was dying, she wanted revenge. And that desire for revenge screwed up her judgment.


 * Have to think some more about the actually language to use for the wiki. sm  Solarmech (talk) 00:06, January 21, 2015 (UTC)


 * If I may, I concur with Solarmech, in either games, despite its numerous endings, is based on an algorithm, a already pre-determined ending where the player's choice is merely an illusion. When people think of Bioshock of similar types of games with moral choices, first thing they (the player) try to figure out is if they're going to go one route versus another (good vs. evil, etc.) In game, the character's choices are impactful, but from a gaming perspective, your fate has been sealed. Compare Bioshock's morality and choice system versus a game like Fallout or Mass Effect where certain dialogues or actions cause a domino effect that'll effect you in the ending long run. While killing one or two Little Sisters for their ADAM seals you into a bad/ evil/ solemn ending, the forementioned games have more gray space.
 * I don't believe that Fontaine just smack-dabbed make up on his face and people believed he was another man. This was a man (Atlas) who was the literal face of revolution in Rapture, so he'd have to meet people face to face and close up, not to mention being in a leaking underwater environment, that has to be some pretty heavy duty make-up. I believe he either had plastic surgery (seemingly implied in BaS?) OR prosthetics of some kind.
 * Agreed, it would have been selfish if Elizabeth killed Comstock and left Sally and the other Little Sisters to continued being exploited by men like Fontaine or Ryan or even Cohen. Even Rosalind Lutece, in her post-death dialogue with Robert, exclaimed: enslavement, exploitation, extermination. Whether Elizabeth raised Atlas and caused the Rapture Civil War or not, the young girls would continue being part of an unending chain of abuse. As Tenenbaum said "They say to save one life is to save the world entire..." Elizabeth believed true innocence laid in the young girls. Elizabeth was exposed to the idealisms of Rapture and saw how people were, at least a majority in the competitive city. The game revolves around redemption, not only of the main cast of characters but even secondary or minor characters (Tenenbaum, Grace, Stanley, Gil), characters who choose not to give up their humanity, or regret their decision in doing so.
 * Elizabeth wanted Comstock to remember what he had done so she had to create a situation where he would recall due to similar situations and unfortunately, Sally was collateral. In BaS Ep.2 she deeply regrets the role she played and even scolds herself for exploiting Sally just as her "father" did. She sacrificed herself, sacrificed her happiness for the happiness and futures of the little girls. She made the dent, she created the so-called happy ending, or at least in one timeline of a chance at a happy ending instead of allowing continued years misuse of the Little Sisters by men like Andrew Ryan or Yi Suchong. Tricksteroffools (talk) 00:53, January 21, 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid you've either misquoted or misunderstood me.


 * You seem to think I think I thought that Levine was saying that the choices in the real world make no difference. I did/do not. I even included his quote ("the game to me was about the meaninglessness of the choice") in my response. How anyone would mistake that line for him saying that choices made in the real world are meaningless is beyond me.


 * I don't believe I utterly missed your point about choice. OF COURSE the parameters, objectives, and choices are set up by the game developers. Do you think I don't understand how a video game works? In a TRULY free experience yes you could do all those alternative options you suggested like talking to the Splicers, but this isn't real life, it's a game, a narrative game. Stories, especially the story of Rapture, are developed via conflict and goals. Without these scripted situations or objectives, there'd be no game, no story, no experience. So you can't just have a reasonable chat with the crazed Splicer cause he'll kill you. Also: "He would also be able to find another way around the splicer, trick the splicer in some way, have somone else talk to or kill the splicer…"


 * "The only thing the player does is make minor choices on how they will acomplish goals set by the game maker." <== That was my point. That's the whole "Choice in Videogames" debate wrapped up in a nutshell. Yet it feels like from your context you view that as insignificant, but it's not.
 * A film is a visual experience completely devoid of choice. The filmmaker directs what an audience sees, hears, and how the story will end for the viewer. At least a video game affords a somewhat interactive experience. Yes, the choices are relatively small, but every little action reflects a player's choice of interaction/ their credo. Games have come a long way from the days of Super Mario Bros and other side-scrollers where you were truly hampered by which way you could go or fight an enemy; those are games without choice.


 * As for the original action that started this discussion, I want to restate that my real problem is that it feels like Levine was further limiting possibilities not only with the ending of Episode Two, but also with his comments.


 * Why would it be difficult? What if he had a mole in Ryan Security and knew that the raid was coming? He could've prepared for it accordingly. What if it really was Steinman who did the surgery? He's such a talented surgeon that (especially with the use of ADAM) he could've easily minimized the scarring to the point where you couldn't see it OR perhaps the scars could be covered with make up. Of course, you couldn't see it by comparing the two portraits, the designers didn't want to draw too much attention so they wouldn't put large scars over his picture. I'm not saying that is what happened, I'm just saying your method of compare/contrast isn't sufficient and there's too much potential.


 * Remember Sullivan's loading screen quote: "It's probably just a coincidence, but I'll be damned if anyone had ever heard of this Atlas guy before Fontaine went tits up." My point was that nothing conclusively states whether it's plastic surgery or make up.


 * Pehaps the word "selfish" was too strong. That's not to say I don't believe Elizabeth has many redeeming qualities: she's a survivor, she's cunning, she's determined, etc. However, her actions were self-centered in BaSE1 and her actions in episode 2 don't change that, just redeem it. Hers was not a journey of justice but vengeance. Even though Comstock had survived, he was powerless, threatless, and had tried to better someone else's life. In BaSE2 her actions after her death were generous, caring, self-sacrificing.


 * Still, I have doubts. Enabling Atlas's escape would start the civili war which would indeed eventually see the end of the Little Sister program as Rapture and thousands of lives were both snuffed out, but what a huge cost. And so many more girls were drafted into the program as the war intensified.


 * Regardless… to your original question of how Elizabeth could permit the LS program to start again under Sofia Lamb, how can you say she should have seen it coming when she couldn't even see the Big Daddy spearing her. With BAS's somewhat mudlded details, it's sometimes hard to tell, but it seems she has the potential to see beyond all the doors, but she has to actively act in order to do it.


 * I apologize if this sounded terse or flippant, but to me your reply seemed to indicate that you only responded to my most hyperbolic statements, didn't consider the whole of what I said, and were rather dismissive. I hope this discussion doesn't leave any negative feelings


 * Unownshipper (talk) 03:33, January 21, 2015 (UTC)


 * PS: I was in the process of writing this response when Trickster published his


 * @ Trickster. A good makeup job that changes a person's look is not as hard to do as one might think. Take a look at how much Marlon Brando changed for the Godfather and that was done with minimal make up (Here and Here a couple good ones.) And Fontaine seems to have been good with his makeup. About the only prothesis he might have needed to use would be for the cleft chin. Other than that his features didn't change. Put pics of Fontaine and Atlas side by side and look at them.
 * And since was Stanley ever redeamed? He was a mass murderer looking to cover up his crimes. And it's clear he would have had no problem kllling more people to save himself. No redemption there. Grace never really did anything wrong that she knew was wrong ahead of time, she was lied to by Lamb. But I can see where she might have tried to make up for her mistakes. Gil only felt sorry for what he did because it was Eleanor. He certainly took part in the the creation of new Little Sisters kidnapped from he surface and didn't seem to have a problem with it. So I don't see any thing that involves redemption there. Tenebaum, certainly is the Redemer though.)


 * @Unownshipper You're not being insulting so I don't see any reason for hard feelings. You say that "You seem to think I think I thought that Levine was saying that the choices in the real world make no difference." that line stands in direct contrast to "it almost comes off as nihilism." Nihilism is very real world and has very little to do with video games IMO. That's why. (A real Nihilist would probably not make a video game).


 * BTW, you missed the most important line about not having to have ANY dealings with the splicer at all. You talk about structrue and objectives, but that is the very point Levine is making. Those objectives reduce the player to having limited or no real choice at all. A game where you and only you decide your goals and how to get to them with only the most basic rules (physics) would be a game with real choice. Minecraft has a lot more choice than any Bioshock game.


 * As for Atlas's release starting the Civil War, the Civil War was inevitable. If not Atlas, then someone else would have come along (Maybe even Comstock!). A lot of people were sick of Ryan, even the people closest to him such as Bill McDonagh. The Civil War might have accelerated the number of girls going into the Little Sister program, but not by much. Those girls would have been made into Little Sisters because of Ryan's greed for profit throught the sale of ADAM. And frankly I doubt very many girls were still left at the start of the war. Masha Lutz as well as Sally were taken well before Atlas got out.


 * Elizabeth's powers in Burial at Sea Part 1 were NOT what they were at the end of BSI (Demigod mode). For some unexplaned reason (Lot of possibilities but no proof for anything) she had suffered a drop in power that put her near (but still above) her power level in most of BSI. That is why she didn't see the Bouncer kill her and why she didn't protect herself. If she was at demigod status like she had been at the end fo BSI she could have easily protected herself just as she did with Songbird. Heck, if she could still see Behind All the Doors, why did she work for Sander Cohen for months to find out where Sally was in the first place? But after she was "killed" by the Bouncer she could start to see Behind all the Doors again. So she *would* be able to see what happens if she does not let Atlas out. She certainly saw the results of her own actions and she certainly saw much more, but cannot recall it.


 * Well BACK TO THE SUBJECT


 * Fontaine (Level)
 * 3. If the player rescued every Little Sister, or saved them all but one, then an alternative ending will be shown. The cinematic shows a bathysphere surfacing right next to the very lighthouse Jack entered Rapture in; this time, it is in complete daylight. The door opens, and it is filled with five rescued Little Sisters. Jack helps them out, and the cinematic proceeds to show them living happy, fulfilling events in their futures, such as graduation, marriage, and parenthood. The cinematic ends showing Jack on his deathbed surrounded by the five rescued Little Sisters that he raised. This is a heartwarming cinematic, and is narrated as such by Tenenbaum's voice.


 * Narration : "They offered you the city, and you refused it. And what did you do instead? What I have come to expect of you: you saved them. You gave them the one thing that was stolen from them: a chance. A chance to learn, to find love, to live. And in the end what was your reward? You never said, but I think I know... a family."


 * A interview with Ken Levine indicates that this ending for the game is the canon ending.(1)


 * (1) http://www.thewayfaringdreamer.com/interviews/2014/12/26/ken-levine-interview


 * Looking at the Elizabeth Page nothing seems to need to be added. sm Solarmech (talk) 12:31, January 21, 2015 (UTC)


 * Any objections to the change then? sm Solarmech (talk) 17:31, January 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * I feel like that's unnecessary to put right in the middle of that section. Why not just put it int the Behind the Scenes as we don't really learn any of this except for an outside interview?


 * A interview with Ken Levine indicates that the Good Ending is the canon ending.(1) In point of fact, the BioShock Infinite downloadable content Burial at Sea follows this ending.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 05:23, January 24, 2015 (UTC)


 * Ok, will fix later. sm  Solarmech (talk) 15:29, January 24, 2015 (UTC)



The Air Grabber
Regarding your recent edit to the Air Grabber article, how did you find out that some parts were to be acquired from a destroyed turret? Pauolo was the one who originally posted about the unused quest lines from the game files, and we know that he can read game files, so I wanted to ask how you uncovered this information. Have you gained access to the game code as well?

Unownshipper (talk) 01:39, May 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * I have access to certain things. However I MUCH prefer not to speak about such things in public. I use Solarmech for my Steam Account and the 2K forums if you want to contact me privately. Just drop some a message here about so I know someone isn't pretending to be you. sm --Solarmech (talk) 11:46, May 14, 2015 (UTC)

DELETE

Let me say it again since you clearly did not get it first time Pauolo. I do not want you on my Talk Page or having contact with me. You want to talk to Unknownshipper, that's your business. But take it someplace else and do not involve me or my Talk Page. I hope I have made myself VERY clear on this matter. sm --Solarmech (talk) 19:16, May 17, 2015 (UTC)

Re: Project proposal: Transitioning to more mobile-friendly infoboxes
Hey there, hope all is well. I received a post on my talk page about transitioning the site to more mobile-friendly infoboxes and I was hoping you and some of the other devoted contributors would take a look at it and share your thoughts.

Unownshipper (talk) 23:14, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Support for my adminship request.
Thanks for the support for my request for adminship. I really appreciate it! &mdash;Mainframe98 talk·blog·edits 17:39, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

YouTube Video's that explain some of the physics concepts used in Bioshock Infinite
The Fabric of the Cosmo- The Illusion Of Time This near full hour long documentary appeared on PBS's NOVA. https://youtu.be/-EWrd01ENWE

An expert from the above program that shows that past, present and future all exist together. This is part of the concept behind the Sea of Doors. https://youtu.be/vrqmMoI0wks

The Fabric of the Cosmo- Quantum Theory This near full hour long documentary appeared on PBS's NOVA. https://youtu.be/CBrsWPCp_rs

--Solarmech (talk) 14:21, October 5, 2015 (UTC)

RE : Recent Images
You're welcome!! :) But, unfortunately, there are still lots of poor, pointless, low quality images in our wiki. Can you help us to clean up so called 'deleting candidate' images? Thanks. Pawn of Atlas (talk) 15:47, November 1, 2015 (UTC)

Missing Icons for Plasmids from BioShock 2
I've been playing around with Paint.Net and I have made icons for the BioShock 2 Plasmids which didn't have icons for level 2 and 3. I want to know if you think these images meet the requirements. You can view them here: http://1drv.ms/1PmdLPW. Are these Icons Wiki-worthy? They could have been crafted by Sander Cohen himself! Meh, perhaps Sofia Lamb will accept them as unconscious art. Oh god No! My eyes! Spare me! You will hear from my lawyer about the costs of Steinman's Surgery! &mdash; Mainframe98 talk · blog · edits  19:09, January 10, 2016 (UTC)

Rather surprised these aren't in the game files someplace. sm --Solarmech (talk) 12:46, January 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * Only the base image is in the game files. The + symbol has to be manually pasted on top of it. &mdash; Mainframe98 talk · blog · edits  13:10, January 11, 2016 (UTC)

Art Deco Architecture
While I have mostly focused on Bioshock Infinite I did find a VERY interesting page for Art Deco Architecture on Tumbler. There are over 850 pages on the site. Each page has a dozen or more pictures or pieces of art work. (There is some Bioshock concept art in there). Some of the buildings would look very much at home in Rapture.

http://decoarchitecture.tumblr.com/

List of Topics
You can find a list of topics at Template:Information/doc. &mdash; Mainframe98 talk · blog · edits 11:18, June 7, 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. sm --Solarmech (talk) 11:33, June 7, 2016 (UTC)

source sst
Hi Solarmech! I saw that you uploaded File:Labor Barge.png and that the source is "sst". Can you tell me what that is shortcut means? --Bioexpander (talk) 12:21, June 12, 2016 (UTC)

Opps. Looks like I mangled stss to sst somehow. Will fix. sm --Solarmech (talk) 14:23, June 12, 2016 (UTC)


 * thanks for the info --Bioexpander (talk) 16:56, June 12, 2016 (UTC)

The Autistic Spectrum in Cartoon Form
I ran across this someplace else and thought it might be good to post here as there are known to be a number of important characters in the BioShock series that are Autistic. (Tenenbaum, the Luteces) Source is here http://themighty.com/2016/05/rebecca-burgess-comic-redesigns-the-autism-spectrum/

And the short YouTube vid https://youtu.be/xW3ggwV8wl8

--Solarmech (talk) 09:55, July 5, 2016 (UTC)

The hardcore teen bike messengers of the early 1900s
Some of the pics are from after 1912, but most of them come before. These kids mostly 14 or 15 but some younger work some long hours delivering messages and drugs. (10:30 PM to Midnight in some cases) Many times into the cities Red Light Districts. More than a few smoke already.

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/07/20/the-hardcore-teen-bike-messengers-of-the-early-1900s/21435623/

Bioshock: Rapture (Novel)
Lets talk about the edits on here (Kelis98 (talk) 21:41, August 9, 2016 (UTC)).

Re: Re: Unplayable protagonist
Good catch! Thanks, that answers my question. &mdash; Mainframe98 talk · blog · edits 19:24, September 4, 2016 (UTC)


 * Point of order, a deuteragonist is the person second in importance to the protagonist in a drama. The word is not to be used as a synonym for "two protagonist of equal importance/screen time." Furthermore, the issue of deuteragonist is irrelevant in the current debate.


 * There isn't a deuteragonist in BioShock 2, not even Eleanor Lamb. Nor is there a non-playable character. The edits made to the Subject Delta article were unnecessary and somewhat clumsily written in the context, so I say they stay removed.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 20:34, September 4, 2016 (UTC)


 * Point of order to your point of order. I said dualtagonists, NOT deuteragonist. So while you are correct about the deuteragonist, it was not what I was talking about. I actually agree with you about the inclusion of Subject Delta being the player character looking clumsy and unneeded. sm --Solarmech (talk) 12:02, September 5, 2016 (UTC)


 * Interesting, I'd never heard of a dualtagonist before. Regardless, I'm glad we agree on the edit.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 19:02, September 6, 2016 (UTC)

More Saves for BioShock Infinite: A Workaround Guide
One of the biggest complaint about BioShock Infinite is the save system. The game autosaves and you can get one autosave. If you want to go back, you have to go and restart the chapter. Well, I can’t do anything about the game only autosaving at certain points, but I have figured out a way to get more autosaves. Now this is a work around and requires opening files and either copying them or changing files names. It’s not overly hard to do though. Of course this only works for the PC.

Finding the Files

First thing you need to do is turn off Steam Cloud. Having it running will probably mess things up in some way. Next open up the following directory.

“Steam\userdata\(Steam ID Number\8870\remote\savedata”

This is the location where BioShock Infinite stores its save game files. It would be a very good idea to create a shortcut to this directory. Once there, you will find a bunch of files that look similar to those below.

TC_CabRide-0_9_7_2016_8_55_56_10.sav

TC_CabRide-0_9_7_2016_8_55_56_10.bkm

Most files will end with “bkm” and at least two of them will end with “sav”. All of these different types of saved games. Those files ending with “bkm” are chapter starts. BSI allows you load the game from chapter starts so we can mostly ignore these files for the moment.

The files we want are those that end with “sav”.

As you can see above these files start with letters and end with numbers. The first 2 letters are the map. In this case “TC” stands for “Town Center”. The rest of the letters indicate a specific location on the map where the autosave as triggered. “CabRide” is the entrance to the “Montgomery Residence”. The numbers are the date and time stamp for the autosave. But the last number, in this case “10” is the sequential number of the autosave. This number is important, so remember it.

Now I said earlier that there could be more than two sav files in this directory. If you have any of the DLC they will have their own sav files. Now why are there so few autosave files? Shouldn’t there be an autosave file for every autosave? Well, there isn’t. BSI deletes old autosaves as it creates new ones BUT there is hope.

Saving The Autosaves

Remember: Safety First! Before doing anything, make a copy of the “savedata” directory until you are comfortable with what you are doing. That way if you make a mistake you have a backup.

Even with if you don’t have any DLC, there are two sav files. When the game deletes the old autosaves it deletes the older one from before the previous autosave. So if BSI autosaves sequence number “10”, the games deletes autosave number “8”. This means that autosave “9” is still there, safe and sound. Just make a copy of the sav and put it in another directory. A way to help keep the files in order is to set the "View" to "Sorting By Date".

Now you don’t have to exit the game to save your “extra” autosaves. You can just minimize BioShock Infinite and copy files at will. The game will go to a menu and you won’t miss a moment of the action. I would not advise deleting *any* files while the game is running as I don’t know what would happen. Maybe nothing would happen, maybe not.

So now you have old autosave files, how do you use them? This is a little trickier and BSI should not be running when you try this. In order to use an old autosave file you have to either rename, delete or move the files with a sequential number higher than the one you want to use. For example, I want to use autosave “5” and your current autosave sequence number is “67”, you need to move/rename/delete sequence numbers “66” AND “67”. Just to be on the safe side I would add autosaves “4” and “5” in the directory, not just “5". I don’t know what BSI would do if it went to delete an old autosave (number “4”) and it couldn’t find it. Nothing may happen, or you could crash the game. I would rather not find out.

Now as I am playing through BSI again I am “collecting” autosave files. Not just a few, but everyone that I can. That way if I need to go back to a specific area but don’t want to play through a large portion of a chapter I can easily go back.

A little on the bak files. These files are actually the same file as a sav file, but have a different name to signify that they are the start of a new game chapter. You can actually copy a “bak file and change the file type to “sav” and it will work. There is no reason to do this though.

Empty sections
Because there was no indication that there was anything happening. If you had already uploaded some files, I'd left it alone. I might have been too early, but I don't see why it wouldn't be a possibility to add the section when adding the files. &mdash; Mainframe98 talk · blog · edits 20:03, September 29, 2016 (UTC)

Because I got inturupted in the middle of things. That's why. Give me a little credit why don't you? sm --Solarmech (talk) 06:07, September 30, 2016 (UTC)

Recent Image
Regarding your recent image, it looks great so thank you for both contributing it and giving it an informative description. One question though, is this from BioShock Museum of Orphaned Concepts or from the version from the BioShock: The Collection?

Unownshipper (talk) 00:26, September 30, 2016 (UTC)

From the Collection. That's why I made a new gallery for these images and called it "Remastered Gallery". If you have a better name though, go for it. sm --Solarmech (talk) 06:10, September 30, 2016 (UTC)

Re: Undo revision on Cast Out the Devil
The page didn't have a Talk Page so didn't seem worth making one just for a small matter. I felt my addition spoke for itself. Later on Booker is significantly affected when he drinks his first Vigor that causes crazy unnatural physical deformities (Devil's Kiss), and the first time you drink Bucking Bronco properly he looks at his hands as the deformities take place for the first time, so it seems kind of odd and conflicting that both the deformities and crazy powers involved with the Bucking Bronco Vigor aren't at all acknowledged when it's used in the carnival game. I felt that was noteworthy as a bit of trivia regarding contradictions in the game but if you disagree then whatever I guess, not gonna have a revert war over it. JezMM (talk) 12:20, October 25, 2016 (UTC)


 * Well then the other Vigors are drunk they clearly have a much more dramatic effect on Booker. After Booker drinks the Devil's Kiss he states "Whew...that wasn't no sample." A solid indication that the sample was MUCH milder than the "Full Power" version used later in the game. If you want to start a Talk Page there is no reason we shouldn't. It's not hard to do. :) sm --Solarmech (talk) 14:43, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

Regarding my recent edits...
The reason I removed the timestamps was because   I had done a 'copy-paste' from another post, so  I had no idea if it was, in fact, the correct timestamp for those posts.

If there's a specific template to be used for that, please let me know, for future reference.

Jane St. Valentine (talk) 08:50, November 9, 2016 (UTC)

What should be done when making changed of this type is to give a short explanation of why the changes are being made. A little communication can go a long way as a reason for changes like these may not be readily apparent to others. sm --Solarmech (talk) 11:18, November 9, 2016 (UTC)

The Number 122
(Moved from Talk:Path of the Scroll)

Not quite the right section to put this in, but what the heck. :) We know that the number 122 shows up as the "Code" for the bells and how many times the alt Bookers tossed the coin, but might there be more hidden "122"s in the game that no one noticed yet? I don't think finding them will unlock a "hidden ending" or anything (would be nice though). But it may be something to keep an eye out for on playthroughs. And also pay attention to the clocks as well. They DO have working second and minute hands (they are even accurate). We can get a good idea what time of the timeline for things. sm --Solarmech (talk) 20:46, November 10, 2016 (UTC)


 * I discovered the clock in the Lighthouse near the dead Lighthouse Keeper does not tell the correct time. It indicates that Booker arrives at the Lighthouse at about 1:15PM. Problem is that the Sun is clearly NOT overhead in Columbia when you get there. It's actually rather low in the sky and much closer to the time the other clock a (non functional) grandfather clock says it is. (10:17 AM). To me that begs a question. Why have an incorrect clock? It could be a (very) minor mistake by a dev and it probably is. But What if it's not? With the clock's time so close to the "magic" number of 1:22 I wonder if there could be something more. I would be surprised if there was, but it could be worth looking into. sm --Solarmech (talk) 13:45, November 12, 2016 (UTC)

Found another 122 reference. The sign for the Good Time Club has a picture of a clock in teh center of it. And the "clock" is set to 1:22 AM. The number 122 could just be a theme/joke and probably is, but there may be something more. sm --Solarmech (talk) 21:53, December 20, 2016 (UTC)

Contradiction
Regarding your recent change to the BioShock: Rapture (Novel) page, the edit stands in some contrast to the other 5 contradictions mentioned. While the others mention things that "happen" (Bill McDonagh kills a Splicer, Jasmine Jolene is strangled, Atlas is at the Fishbowl Diner on New Year's Eve), the newest entry is a lack of something happening.

Are the Tears not included in the novel because they weren't happening (that's the obvious answer because John Shirley couldn't predict BioShock Infinite in 2011) or simply because none of the characters bothered to mention them (because perhaps they were focused on other things)? One answer is as likely as another, but my point is would we add another contradiction because Fine Gin, the Southern Mall, Audrey Hesselgren, or the Need to Know Theaters are not present ( I don't know if these things are or aren't present in the book, but you get my point )?

I think we should undo the change, and restrict the contradictions only to clearly seen differences and examples.

Unownshipper (talk) 00:41, December 14, 2016 (UTC)


 * I am well aware that John Shirley could not know about the events of Burial at Sea. But it must be constidered that Levine went out of his way to have Tears opening up in Rapture and make it a major plot point. This is very different that drinkable Plasmids which I decided was something that could easliy be overlooked. Why are Tears more important? Because they are holes in the air to other realities. If those opened up in a major city today it would be a HUGE news story that couldn't be ignored. I'm sure Ryan considered them a major security risk. Which is why he knew enough to call Elizabeth "Miss Comstock", knew of her powers and knew she was not from Rapture. With everything going on with Atlas, Ryan took time out to investigate the opening of Tears in Rapture and find out what could be seen through them. They were THAT important. So the idea that the characters were focused on other things does not work since we have Ryan well, focusing on them.


 * In contrast, a drinkable Plasmid, the Need to Know Theaters, Gin those are things that are periphery. It's easy to say that drinkable plasmids were (very) short lived and didn't have any real impact. It was just a buisness decision that stopped production. No big deal. The Need to Know Theaters would be in background to the people of Rapture. They are of no more consequence than a machine that dispenses newspapers and are not worth being mentioned. Gin more of the same.


 * But a Tear opening? That's another kettle of fish. Tears were city wide phenomena that no one knew a damn thing about. The reaction in Rapture mirrored that of Columbia if you think about it (Hey it's a Constant! ;) ). Levine deliberatly put Tears in Rapture when he didn't have to and it contradicts the novel. The exact same thing goes for sticking Atlas in Fontaine's. Why did Levine do it? I can't really say for sure, but the most likely reason is that he didn't care about the novel (He did say he hadn't read it after all) and just ignored it in crafting Burial at Sea. And being such an important plot point, Tears should be mentioned. sm --Solarmech (talk) 09:33, December 14, 2016 (UTC)

Remaining Concepts
Hi, I've seen that you've uploaded a lot of early Splicer concepts to the BioShock Removed Content page (and other concepts as well), which is fantastic! I also noted that you wrote this in one of your edit descriptions: "Think that's about enough of them. Do have a few more but they really don't "add" anything."

I urge you to upload the remaining images as well, or share your source, as I think it's important to sort of "archive" the concepts here (Many sites containing concept expired before anyone had the time to uploaded them, which is a shame). Plus, at least I and presumably many others find concepts very interesting.

--Shacob (talk) 13:32, January 22, 2017 (UTC)

Ok, will upload them. As soon as I can figure out which ones they where.... :( sm (opps frgot sig)

AAARGH!!!

I looked around the Museum to see if there were any early splicer pics we didn’t have on the wiki yet. And I saw there were two. So I get the latest version of Umodel to see how it did unpacking BioShock Remastered. Seems to have worked fine, at least for textures. So I ran through the Museum map and found over a DOZEN new things I don’t ever remember seeing before. WTF? It seems that there were other things they had at least considered putting in the Museum and for one reason or another were not put on display. But they left the files in there.

I found some other oddities as well. All the graphics for the player Teleporter plasmid are in there along with many of the other plasmids including Aggressor Irritant. Though it could be Enrage with the old names. Also found all kind of Little Sister skins. Including ones that indicate an injured/burned Little Sister. And one file labeled “GatherCough”. There is a cut audio diary about Gatherers Getting sick and it could be related. Or not.

Another thing I found was something called BeaconBugs. These are apparently some kind of parasite that breaks through the skin. One file is BeaconBirth and shows a patch of skin and some kind of sore or something about ready to burst out. A series of files show this beacon bug moving/swimming/crawling.

Going to take me a little time to straighten these out. Some of the splicer art looks a little distorted/out of proportion. Will take a closer look. Am I first person to even really look at these files? sm --Solarmech (talk) 19:43, January 27, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Images from the Art of BioShock Infinite book
I really appreciate you bringing this up for discussion. I'm 90% sure that uploading scans directly from the book puts this site at risk for copyright violation. Even if you're not the one who scanned it yourself, I think it's the fact that these images are clearly scans from the book (which is still on the market and making the publishers money) that is the problem. I admit, I wasn't really paying attention and thought that those images just came from a developer's personal website, similar to how you uploaded the concept art images from Mauricio Tejerina and Shawn Robertson's pages.

To oversimplify things, the latter is okay as those are images posted by their content creators and shared on the internet for all the world to see. The former, however, is not okay as they're taken without official consent from whoever drew them, Ken Levine, or Dark Horse, the publisher of The Art of BioShock Infinite.

While I doubt any of us would pay a fine, the real risk is that action might be taken against this Wiki we all love so much. I would recommend not uploading anymore images from this site, and also checking with Mainframe98 as well.

Unownshipper (talk) 06:12, February 15, 2017 (UTC)


 * That's what I was afraid of. And they are very high quality scans as well. :( I don't know how to delete uploaded images but I will remove the link to an image that is on a page. sm --Solarmech (talk) 08:59, February 15, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd strongly advise you not to upload any more of the images from that website, or from this artbook in general (as high quality as they are) because they are against local policy and are infringing on the copyright for the art book. In fact, the user should not be allowed to upload them to Taringa! in the first place as the Terms and Conditions of the site prohibit uploading copyrighted material the user has no permission for. (See the Wikipedia article) As a result, the images will have to be deleted. &mdash; Mainframe98 talk · blog · edits 18:00, February 15, 2017 (UTC)


 * With all due respect Mainframe, didn't I just say I would (and have) removed the one image that was on a page and I would have deleted them from the image archive myself if I could? sm --Solarmech (talk) 20:01, February 15, 2017 (UTC)


 * You did indeed, and I apologize for not mentioning that, as well as being too authoritative on this. &mdash; Mainframe98 talk · blog · edits 20:50, February 15, 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank You. And while I have people's attention to this matter the BioShock Infinite Removed Content page has at least 2 images from the artbook. On under "City In the Sky" (The Emporia image "Goulden Gavin Change Is GoodEmporia.jpg" ) and both pics for the Mad Toymaker Toys page. The pages are going to need some work after the images are removed. sm --Solarmech (talk) 13:22, February 16, 2017 (UTC)

Images in question: File:Toymakerrobot.jpg File:11751875 613236642148162 4416729241368742284 n.jpg


 * Ok, these three images have been removed from the pages in question. sm --Solarmech (talk) 14:42, February 17, 2017 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Thanks for adding a new image to Mad Toymaker Toys, since that page would end up without images. There's one comment about File:Goulden Gavin Change Is GoodEmporia.jpg, this image is from an (openly available) presentation from one of the developers. I'll leave that online for now, as I'll be able to get a source soon for that one. &mdash; Mainframe98 talk · blog · edits 14:56, February 17, 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to ask, but...
Do you think you could answer a question I asked in this talk page? http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/File_talk:Memorabilia_DIFF_Cropped.png

Jane St. Valentine (talk) 22:32, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

Re: High Quality Trailers
First, are the source videos here on the wiki HD? If the Blur videos are higher quality, which it looks like they're all 1080p, then yes you should upload them. While watermarks make images low quality, I personally have no problem with them on videos as we can't be too picky in the latter field. Is the size a problem? I'm not aware of size restrictions on the BioShock Wiki, so I don't see it impacting us, but you may want to check with Mainframe98.

Unownshipper (talk) 01:00, May 10, 2017 (UTC)

Well, can't get the vids up here, but might was well post links to the pages on vimeo. BioShock 2 "Sea of Dreams": https://vimeo.com/57231137 BioShock 2 Trailer: https://vimeo.com/57232609 BioShock Infinite Announcement Trailer: https://vimeo.com/57233138 And the BSI TV Spot: https://vimeo.com/106420249 sm --Solarmech (talk) 15:28, May 10, 2017 (UTC)


 * It was a good find, nonetheless.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 19:34, May 10, 2017 (UTC)

RE: File Sizes
Excellent find! Unfortunately, we're limited to 10 megabytes per file (see Help:Uploading files). So this would not work. I can't think of a different solution, that would be more 'on-wiki' than what we already have. &mdash; Mainframe98 talk · blog · edits 10:53, May 10, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Businesses & Names
Hey, just wanted to say I responded to your and Shacob's suggestions for the Character pages on his Talk Page if you wanted to add more ideas.

Unownshipper (talk) 02:23, May 21, 2017 (UTC)

Re: A Wiki Proposal
I'm not against the idea per se, but doesn't the Basic Security Automaton article pretty much cover it? Are we counting more than the Gun Automaton and the Rocket Automaton?

Unownshipper (talk) 15:26, June 7, 2017 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah, then sure, I think that could be useful.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 18:46, June 7, 2017 (UTC)

The "Lost" Penn Station of New York City
The original Penn Station was a main "gateway" for rail travel into New York City when it was built. Construction started in 1901 and was finished in 1910. Booker DeWitt would have been familiar with it and it may have served as additional inspiration for Grand Central Depot only with Grand Central Terminal. It was torn down in 1963 and is often called the greatest “lost” architecture of New York City.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(1910%E2%80%931963)

https://quitecontinental.net/2012/02/07/ghosts-of-train-stations-past-new-york-pennslyvania-station/

https://keithyorkcity.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/penn-station-the-greatest-architectural-loss-in-new-yorks-history/

And a special bonus of a series of photos of New York City in 1910 including Penn Station.

http://www.vintag.es/2014/02/b-photos-of-new-york-city-in-1910.html

Then there was the Hippodrome. This was a massive state of the art theater (Seating capacity of 5,300) open from 1905 to 1939.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Hippodrome

http://gothamist.com/2016/08/10/hippodrome_theater_history.php

Re: Sky-Hook Concept Art
I did some digging and you're right, the concept doesn't seem to exist outside the art book version on the web. The only thing I could find was a fan made wallpaper which likely uses the art book version: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bioshock/comments/1cbkwx/i_liked_the_skyhook_concept_art_so_much_i_decided/

--Shacob (talk) 12:33, August 13, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Cut Multiplayer Section
There really isn't much on the multiplayer on the web, so It is great that you found that article and I urge you to add the info to the section. It would be fantastic if you managed to scavenge something from the files, as any information/models are appreciated. It seems that you as well have a liking for concept art and removed content, which is great, as there is still a lot of stuff to cover on this wiki.

--Shacob (talk) 19:54, August 26, 2017 (UTC)

Regarding: Maps of Market Street/High Street
Oh No! No I did not. Will this be an issue? I figured since the pages did not have maps that I would add them and I've seen that other pages use art/strategy book images so I figured it would be ok :S I could ask them, but I doubt they would answer.

Happy Thoughts! --JollyHarriet (talk) 20:02, August 28, 2017 (UTC)

Re: More Easter Eggs Foreshadowing Hidden in Paris?
I'm positive that there is more. I've always though that the Paris segment is almost strangely detailed, there is so much to see! There are some unidentified real-life paintings around the location and the upper apartments seen through open windows might have something, although you need to use console commands, which I can't figure out for Infinite. The french posters might also have some hidden meanings and that is just a few things that exists/might exist in the map. I tip my hat to the developers that made the Paris level, as it truly is well made.

--Shacob (talk) 20:17, September 1, 2017 (UTC)

I have actually downloaded the cheat engine, but I'm having a hard time with it. I will give it another try however. I would love to start replacing low quality images from Infinite, as there are over 200 on this site!!!

Is this the table you were describing, I found it on Web Archives: http://web.archive.org/web/20161113051906/http://forum.cheatengine.org/viewtopic.php?t=565557

--Shacob (talk) 15:38, September 2, 2017 (UTC)

Rebuilding Spec-Ops, BioShock Infinite’s Canceled Multiplayer Mode
First thing I have to say is that is speculation on what BioShock Infinite’s Co-Op mode called Spec-Ops was to be like. Now there isn’t lot of info on Spec-Ops out there, but there is more than people realize. Part of the problem is that some of the information has been overlooked or thought to refer to the single player portion of the game. Only when you take a close look do you realize that maybe it was for multiplayer or it would be applicable to multiplayer.

So what might have Spec Ops been like? From news articles we learn it was a four person co-op mode where players battled AI controlled enemies and could upgrade their character using loot found on the maps. The maps were also to have some level of randomized content though this was likely the location and type of loot, First Aid Kits and ammunition rather than anything that would affect map’s layout to much. That isn’t to say that the maps would not change. It was stated that some content on the maps would change to tell a story about the Vox Populi and Founders. My guess would be that as months passed certain props would be removed and other added. This could be such things as pro Vox posters being put on the walls, pro Founder statues and artwork being damaged or destroyed or battle damage taking a toll on the environment. These changes could also affect how the map would be played on some level with barricades being put up or removed. Access to areas could be made harder or easier due to rubble blocking doorways or the rubble being removed. The whole way a battle could be fought could be altered by closing off a corridor that gave the players easy access to supplies. Without those supplies the players may find a portion of the map much difficult to defend or assault. This changing of maps over time gives them more replay ability, but also will mean the developers will need to allocate resources over time to the game.

So what about the player’s character? From BioShock Infinite’s game files we learn there are five different classes. Melee, Mobility, Soldier, Tank and Vigor. From an old GUI (graphical user interface) screenshot we see that there are multiple Loadout slots available. Few Single Player games have this feature, but it’s common in multiplayer games. It is possible that these Loadout slots are actually for the classes. Players seem to have been able to upgrade their characters in several ways. First is by finding loot on the level, both environmental loot such as money in cash registers, or on the bodies of slain enemies. This money could then be spent upgrading weapons/Vigors (or buying new ones), getting Gear, buying armor, Salt and ammunition. There are a probably a few upgrades I didn’t think of. I find it unlikely that upgrades purchased with loot from the level are maintained after the end of the match. Popular co-op games I am familiar with are Killing Floor/Killing Floor 2, Left 4 Dead and the Mann vs Machine Mode for Team Fortress 2 don’t allow that characters upgrades obtained in game to carry over.

On the other hand Spec-Op does seem to have and Experience Point system in place. The old version of the GUI has an XP bar on it and game files have text congratulating the player for gaining another level of experience. What benefits that be gained from gaining levels can only be speculated, but here are some possibilities. Increased damage done by weapons, damage resistance/more health, increased movement speed, ability to carry more ammunition, have better accuracy with weapons (less recoil), faster reloading of weapons, wear more armor, special class ability or the ability to purchase additional Gear, Vigors or weapons. The benefits gained from experience would likely be rather small in order to keep more experienced characters from being too powerful. If new equipment would be made available a good way to keep thing balanced would be to do something like Team Fortress 2 does. Different weapons used by a class would have different strength and weaknesses. An example of this would be the Rocket Launcher used by the Soldier. The stock version can fire four times without reloading. Another version, called the Black Box, can only be fired three times before needing to be reloaded, but the Soldier gains a small amount of health every time the enemy is hit. Of course with Spec-Ops it wouldn’t be the weapons so much but Gear and Vigors.

A small aside about the factions. I suspect that you could play as either the Vox or the Founders. I don’t see that being able to play only a single faction in Spec-Ops being a good thing. Both the Founders and Vox hold some odious beliefs and can BET that if you only could play one faction someone would accuse Irrational Games of favoring the beliefs of that faction, even when it’s clear they don’t. For purposes of gameplay the only difference between the Founders and Vox would be some of the weapons. Each faction would use their own version of the Carbine, Machinegun and maybe the Shotgun. It’s possible an XP upgrade would allow the character to use the other faction’s weapons. Personally, I suspect that part of the reason the Vox weapons were developed was for their use in Spec-Ops, but of course I have no proof of this.

As I said earlier there are five classes in Spec-Ops. Looking at the names it shouldn’t be overly difficult to figure out how they were supposed to work, at least in a general way. It should be noted that these classes resemble enemies in the Single Player part of the game. When figuring out generalities about the classes is easy, any specifics about them is just a partially educated guess at best. A big question is how many weapons does each class carry. Many games allow characters to carry a main weapon, a secondary weapon and a melee weapon. But sometimes multiple main weapons can be carried. I’m going to go with the idea that Irrational went a little different way with things and worked at matching the classes we see in the Single Player game. This means each class is going to be “its own thing” to some extent. I want to make it clear that this is just my opinion and your millage may vary. Most classes have a Sky-Hook but that probably means less that you might think. In the early versions of BioShock Infinite the Sky-Hook could not be used for melee attacks and could only be used to ride the Sky-Lines. That means originally melee attacks may have had the character hitting the enemy with the butt of the weapon they were carrying. With the exception of the Melee class which had a dedicated melee weapon.

Melee: As you can guess, with this class the character would engage the enemy close up and personal with a hand held weapon, probably with a club fo some sort. In order to survive to get in close to an enemy this character would need to move quickly and have a lot of armor. And of course the club would do a lot of damage (More than it probably should) when it hit. For a ranged weapon this class would only carry the Broadsider Pistol

Mobility: This loadout is a little harder to figure out. Given the name this loadout allows for fast movement as well as being more maneuverable than the other character loadouts. This speed and maneuverability would come at a cost of reduced armor. It’s hard to tell what weapon this loadout would carry and I think the Shotgun would be best, but the Hand Cannon is possible. Aside from the main weapon, the loadout has no other weapons. Part of the price of being fast.

Soldier: This is the “average” class loadout. Flexible, but not particularly strong in any one area. This means average speed, armor and ability to do damage. The main weapon would either be a Machinegun or the Carbine. The backup weapon would be the Broadsider Pistol.

Tank: A slow but heavily armored and armed class. This class is similar to the “Beast” enemies from the game, but is not as heavily armored. The main weapon would be the Grenade Launcher or RPG. The Secondary would be the Broadsider Pistol.

Vigor: Of all the loadouts this is the only one that uses Vigors. I don’t see that a character with this loadout being able to have more than two available for use and having just a single Vigor seem like too little. Some of the Vigors would probably not work well for co-op so the possible choices would be Bucking Bronco, Devil’s Kiss, Shock Jockey and Undertow. Their stats would probably need to be tweaked some to make them balanced. Possession would be way easy too abuse in co-op so it’s out unless a huge change was made in how it worked. Charge and Return to Sender would also be unbalanced or would not fit the gameplay well. This class wouldn’t have much armor and the only gun carried would be the Broadsider.

Game Play for Spec-Ops would be fairly similar to that of other co-op games, the players versus AI controlled enemies attacking in waves. There would be differences though in the number of enemies being fought at any one time. In many games the AI enemies greatly outnumber the players and I’m not talking about three to one, five to one or even ten to one. I mean Twenty to one or even thirty to one in some cases. This odds imbalance would not work for Spec-Ops for a couple of reasons. For one, having a large number of *human* attackers being cut down like wheat at harvest time would be way over the top. In co-ops games the enemies are usually not humans, instead they are zombies, robots or some kind of monster. Something people really don’t mind mass killing. A second problem is the result of the engine itself. There are limits on how many characters it can handle at once. Originally BioShock Infinite was supposed to have at least a dozen enemies on screen at once and larger more complex areas (as seen in the 2011 E3 Demo) but was downgraded to be able to work on consoles. Even without being downgrades the engine can’t handle a huge number of enemies of the type BioShock Infinite would use. (I am not saying that the Unreal 3 Engine can’t handle large numbers of enemies, it can, just not the “type” used in BioShock Infinite.)

So, this leaves us with a smaller number of enemies. In co-op games there are usually a lot of weak enemies that can only make melee attacks. Even when the AI controlled enemies can make ranged attacks, the players will still be more powerful than individual enemies. Basically the AI relies on sending a horde of weak enemies at the players in an attempt to overwhelm them with sheer numbers. That isn’t always the case though. There are sometimes very powerful enemies that the AI controls. In Mann vs Machine these would be the Giant Robots, in Killing Floor there are the Fleshpounds and Scrakes. Left 4 Dead has the Witch and Tank. Even then though, the AI controlling the enemies is rather simple and there isn’t much in the way of strategy and tactics. But Spec-Ops was going to have fewer and more powerful enemies and to make them credible enemies there are going to have to use an AI that does more than “run at enemy and attack”. More or less the enemies would have needed to make a combat more similar to multiplayer battles found in Overwatch or Team Fortress 2. I think it’s possible that the creation of the AI for the enemies may have been a problem that contributed to Spec-Ops being closed down.

The “style” of combat would likely have been similar to what was seen in the early trailers for BioShock Infinite. Mobility and the use of Sky-Lines would be important. As evidence for this there is one know Spec-Ops map we know of which was of a museum of some sort and it had lots of cover, at least two floors (and what looks to be a basement area) and Sky-Lines throughout a large portion of the interior. It must be noted that the map also a large outside area with statues, tree, bushes and stone planters. This gives the map a lot of different types of area to fight in. One picture of the map shows that Vending Machines were to be included on the map. How these would have worked is unknown. They may have allowed players to make purchases while a wave of enemies were still attacking or they might have only worked between waves.

One thing I have made mention of, but did not expand upon, is that in Spec-Ops players have Armor. Early in development, Booker could wear something called Protecto-Gear to keep from taking damage. This Protecto-Gear would act as a framework for the pieces of armor. The more Protecto-Gear pieces you had, the more armor you could carry. Protecto-Gear pieces would be for specific location on the body such as the torso arms or legs. We actually see the armor at work in the 2011 E3 Demo. If you look at the top of the screen there is a large bar with two small bars to the right of it. As Booker takes damage, the level depicted in bars is reduced. It is only when these two small bars are reduced to zero that Booker’s main health bar (or his Shield?) starts reflecting the damage taken. And while Booker’s Shield regenerates, the level in the smaller bars does not.

So who or what would the players be fighting in Spec-Ops? At the start the enemies would members of the opposite faction with the following classes: Melee, Mobility, Soldier, Tank and Vigor. Of course these enemies wouldn’t be as powerful as the players, but would have similar abilities. In later waves after the players have had the chance to upgrade some you these “stock” enemies would get tougher and foes such as Beasts, Firemen or Motorized Patriots would start showing up. For a “Boss Wave”, there could be a Handyman or Siren. You might think the Siren showing up as being odd, but early in development there were multiple Sirens in Columbia, not just a single one that was fought three times. I don’t think the Crow (Zealot) would be a good choice for co-op, but I could be wrong. There is the small possibility that new AI controlled enemies could have been invented just for co-op.

A bit of an elephant in the room is the question of cosmetics and micro transactions. Personally, I don’t think that development on Spec-Ops reached the point where a decision had been made on if there was going to be cosmetics and or micro transactions. If they did go for cosmetics there are several directions they could have chosen. Given this is BioShock, different style masks would almost be a given, particularly since the Vox really love the demonically themed ones. Many Founders soldiers wear helmets as well as masks so there are opportunities there for interesting looking cosmetics there. There is also the possibility for different character skins for the classes, each class having a distinctive skin and then cosmetic variants of those. Or course there are weapons skins and seeing how much of an industry has sprung up around them in Counter Strike: GO and other MP games, it’s hard to see Irrational not considering them.

Now, how players could get any cosmetics is a real open question as there are many ways to go. Considering that Spec-Ops was a side project to the single player game, there are likely limits on what kind of system would have been implemented. The simplest thing to do would to be base the cosmetics available to the player based on their XP. Higher the players XP, the more cosmetics they can choose from. A variation of this is cosmetics being given to players when they achieve an Achievement of some sort. There is also the possibility of cosmetics being based on time played. Cosmetics would be randomly dropped after a certain amount of time (Crates!). This is the system used by many popular games. In theory, cosmetics could only have been obtained through buying them via micro transactions. However I think both Irrational and 2K are smart enough to realize this would have not been all that good an idea.

I would have liked to play Spec-Ops and think it could have been fun. On the other hand it was almost a certainty that canceling it in favor of using the resources on the Single Player part of the game was the best call. It is very easy for people and even whole companies suffer from the sunk cost fallacy. Both the single player and multiplayer parts of BioShock Infinite were not progressing as well as the bosses liked, so rather than throwing limited resources at two projects, they moved all of them to single player. One (very) good single player game is much better than a combo single-multiplayer game that is only average. Also to keep a multiplayer game “alive” it needs new content such as maps, weapons/equipment and the like. Since it seems unlikely that Irrational would allow moding that means that all new content would need to be developed by them. This means that a few members of the dev team would be have to work on Spec-Ops after release for months. This does not seem to really be Irrational’s cup of tea to me. So that leads me to think that even if Spec-Ops had been released it probably would have faded in popularity quickly.

RE: Admin Action Request
Done, thanks for the message. The categories have been deleted and the anon has been blocked. &mdash; Mainframe98 talk · blog · edits 16:02, October 20, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Rapture Metro Poster-Robb Waters
I'd say that the poster was intended for BioShock, making it legit. However, the poster should be treated as non-canon and removed content, making the locations also non-canon/questionable (we can't prove their existence, unless Waters' himself has something to say about it).

So feel free to uploaded it and maybe make a note about the non-canon areas. :)

--Shacob (talk) 16:47, November 3, 2017 (UTC)

your edit
why did you remove the info about the various weapons. I feel it neccessary that it be known.

Godzillafan4ever (talk) 18:48, November 10, 2017 (UTC)


 * The information is already on the wiki. Look in the "Behind The Scenes" section of each of the weapons pages. It doesn't need to be on the index page. sm --Solarmech (talk) 18:52, November 10, 2017 (UTC)

well, I feel it does. if such is the case, I'll just remove the facts you mentioned. if you remove it again.

your edit(Cont.)
and also, SOMEONE Stupidly neglected to add some facts I mentioned on the weapon pages themselves. that's why I added the "Dup Info" you removed. so stop. Would you kindly?

Re: what wasn't duplicate information was wrong
for your information, I got the Weapon info from a site called Internet movie Firearms database, and I assure you, this is a very trustworthy website. the link for the bioshock infinite page is below:

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Bioshock_Infinite

Godzillafan4ever (talk) 01:21, November 12, 2017 (UTC)

Replacing vs Duplicating
Hey Solarmech, thanks for the new high quality images you added from Burial at Sea (DLC). I did however notice that a number of these images already appear on this site. For example, the Andalusian Arms image is an identical one, albeit without the distracting HUD element. You added them to the Wiki instead of placing them over the original, older files, which can be done by going to the source image file and selecting "Upload a new version of this file."

I know it might be a bit of a hassle, but would you mind reuploading these images this way? That way we won't have a useless duplicate and have a record of the other images. Afterwards, I'll go in and delete the duplicates. I would do this myself, but I wanted you to get credit for finding these images; of course, if it's too much bother and you don't want to, I'll take care of it for you. You'll find the "Participate in the Future" banner in Electronics, the older Sally photograph is still in the New Images folder, the manager poster in Fontaine's Department Store (Business), and all the other business images are in their corresponding articles. Much appreciated!

Unownshipper (talk) 20:56, November 23, 2017 (UTC)


 * Huh, that's odd that happened. Although that may have happened once to me now that I think of it. Give it another shot and we'll see what happens. No worries, it's no trouble to delete a file. I appreciate the informative description you added.


 * Unownshipper (talk) 21:08, November 23, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Ethics Question
Wow. That is a tough one. Hmm... normally I'd say that anything put on an open-access internet forum like YouTube (as opposed to say, a private research database) counts as "publishing" and thus forfeits a lot of protection rights, but like you indicated, the fact that it's "Unlisted" complicates this. We can't very well pass on something as interesting as this, but we don't want to burn any bridges or run the risk of the owner taking the video down.

I would say the thing to do is to add the information where appropriate (or just in the Removed Content page), add screenshots, and leave it at that. Even though it goes against policy, don't cite the info or images with the url as a reference. You said it'd be difficult to get in contact with the owner, but do give it a try so we can hopefully get their permission. With that, we could properly link the info and images to the video.

Good luck! Good find!

Unownshipper (talk) 03:14, December 18, 2017 (UTC)