Talk: Comstock House

Tears and Timelines

Based on how the article is written now, old Elizabeth brought Booker to 1984 as he crossed the bridge, and all of Comstock House was played in 1984 up until the point where he specifically states he is back in 1912. I can find two problems with this theory -

First, assuming this is true, what is the significance of the Lutece encounter? Booker finds them as he nears the end of the snowy part and says "its a tear. What is it?", to which Rosalind replies "why do you ask what, when the delicious question is when?"

The tear he and Rosalind discuss never plays any audio, and seems to have no significance outside of the alternative theory. Rosalind and Robert's dialog is the same - so why are the Luteces there?

Another flaw of the bridge theory is that if Booker went though the entirety of Comstock House in 1984 as Columbia attacked New York, wouldn't he have known it? The level is very quiet, and, aside from the occasional enemy, peaceful. If there was a war going on outside, wouldn't there be some indication of it? Furthermore, why would old Elizabeth bring him to Comstock House's entrance as opposed to directly to her? If he was indeed her "last hope", why would she risk him dieing at the hands of the Boys of Silence?

An alternative to this is that there either was no tear on the bridge, or the tear did not lead to 1984. Instead, Booker only visits 1984 when old Elizabeth says "take my hand" from the ledge - this, to me, seems like the most likely. Even when young, it is unlikely Elizabeth could have lifted Booker with one hand, and especially not when she is in her 90s.

Because of this I interpret the "take my hand" to mean "take my had as I lead you into this alternate universe", as opposed to "take my hand as I pull you up to this ledge." If the player looks behind old Elizabeth, nothing is at first visible - but when she lifts him, suddenly airships, fireballs, and a sky appear. Most importantly, the player can quite clearly hear noise of explosions and airships, which they could not hear only moments before and, seemingly, only a few feet further away from the action. There simply has to be some sort tear travel happening at this point, as in no other way can the situation make sense. 81.0.104.90 09:32, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

I can see what you mean here, but I'd like to point out at something that confirms when the main part of this level takes place on: the voxophones. In fact, if you listen to Elizabeth's voice she seems older, like when she speaks to you while showing you the consequences of her not being rescued. In those diaries, she points out that a long time has passed when she recorded them. There's also a unused voxophone portrait with her aged model, which probably would have been used for those diaries but was changed with a portrait of her young model to avoid spoiling the surprise. Said portrait has been uploaded with all the other ones on the wikia, i just forgot to put it on her page. You can find it by typing "File:Diary_16.png" in the search bar.

For the Luteces, well what is the significance of their encounters during the whole game? They're here to guide Booker without influencing him too much, probably because telling him the whole truth may result in him making the wrong choices to rescue Elizabeth. So their appearance in Comstock House is to make him realize when he is and why was he brought here. Also, you can see the Luteces are, well, everywhere at any time in any reality, because that's how they are after their "death".

Then for your last arguments, well I must agree that part is flawed. Thinking of it, Comstock House is not a battle building, and may have been distant from the battle until you reach old Elizabeth, but still the ruined office you reach looks so different it makes me think Elizabeth just opened another tear for you to reach her on this ledge over-looking New York. Thinking that way, I suppose Elizabeth would have been too old to precisely create a tear through Booker's position and reality on the bridge in 1912, and hers in 1984 on that ledge. He just had to come closer to her in her reality so she can bring him directly to her. That or Irrational Games just messed up hat part of the game. Also yes, she seems too much old to be able to take your hand to help you climb on those boxes.

Pauolo (talk) 11:20, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

So if I understand this correctly, the only time we're 100% sure Booker is in 1984 is on the ledge, and the only time we're 100% sure he's in 1912 is during the stormy part of the bridge and after he gets sent back by old Elizabeth. The whole level takes place in another universe at some point after 1912, but we're not sure how far after.

In terms of the Voxophones, the first time I heard it I didn't think she sounded old so much as broken. If even a few months had passed in that timeline with no Booker, who knows what she went though - she could be sleep deprived, sick, and be losing her voice from screaming. This would explain the voice difference, and be a better explanation for the Voxophone image then just that the developers didn't want to spoil something.

The Luteces tend to have some relevance when they appear - for example, the coin flip shows that there have been 122 other Bookers. Their appearance in cell #9 is a hint for what Elizabeth should do, as is their appearance in Memorial Gardens. As far as I can tell, the Comstock House appearance doesn't have any such relevance.

81.0.104.90 21:46, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

It is also worth noting that Elizabeth's screams can be heard during the entire level, suggesting that the whole thing takes place in 1912. The existance of the voxophones, though, directly contradicts this. Can anyone make sense of it? 83.111.92.120 01:03, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I must disagree with the above-mentioned argument.

First of all, the issue of whether or not that's Elizabeth that Booker sees when looking across from the Operating Theater can be completely disregarded. Look at the image of her in silhouette on the level's page. Young Elizabeth wears her hair in a medium-length bob, while the woman Booker is looking at has her hair in a "Gibson girl"-style updo, the hairstyle Old Elizabeth wears. Her strength has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Women are stronger than they are depicted in media (older women too), and she's not pulling up dead weight, he's lifting himself up as well. We don't hear the sound of her opening a Tear when she pulls him up on the ledge (in fact, we aren't given ANY inclination that she's opening a Tear at that moment), so we cannot assume that she's showing Booker some possible future that occurs if Elizabeth isn't rescued, but the future that has come to pass. It's "take my hand as I pull you up" option not "take my had as I lead you into this alternate universe" option; otherwise when are we for the majority of the level?

As for why we don't hear the battle going on in New York, maybe it literally just started as he got pulled up there or Columbia just arrived over New York. If Columbia had been traveling towards New York for the majority of the time that the Comstock House level was going on, then of course we wouldn't have heard the sounds of an attack. Plus, it's the airships that are attacking, not Comstock House itself, so maybe the building only just came into range to observe the battle.

As for the Luteces, who can say what their motives are? Since by this time Booker clearly knows that he's not in July 7, 1912, maybe they're just there to make you question just how far forward in time you've been sent (6 months, a year, more?). Booker definitely does not go through the tear they're standing next to.

There was absolutely a Tear on the bridge (It's large but you can see it flicker if you stop and look around). The real question is when did it send you? We must assume that it's to 1984. Booker never walks through another Tear (he is simply sent back to 1912 by Old Elizabeth), and the bilboard in NY says it's 1984. All of the sounds of Elizabeth screaming come from the the mini-Tears (even the ones heard in Her Loving Embrace).

Unless someone can give a compelling, evidence-backed theory as to when Booker is, we must assume the Tear on the bridge sent him to 1984 and that we're there the whole level until Booker is sent back to 1912 when he confirms this with his dialogue.

Unownshipper (talk) 03:36, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I don't recall any sound being associated with going through a tear. Opening one, yes, but what if it was already open and she simply pulled him through?

To be honest, I don't see any proof that Booker goes through a tear on the bridge either. There are flickers in the clouds that fly by, but I don't remember seeing anything to prove we actually go in one.

And here is evidence suggesting we're not in 1984 for the entire Comstock House level:

1: The background behind old Elizabeth is simply different after she pulls you onto the ledge. There is no disputing this.

2: The screams cannot come from a mini-tear, as there are no mini-tears around. Mini-tears are shown to have a limited range from which you can hear them, so there is no way this is possible. The main example of this isn't in Her Loving Embrace, but near the Operating Theater just before you see old Elizabeth. It initially seems as if the screams are coming from the mini-tear infront of the Luteces, however the screams can still be easily heard well after the mini-tear closes. Because sound coming from every other tear in the game stops when the tear closes, I think its safe to assume this sound is not coming from the tear.

3: Women may be stronger then they are depicted in the media, but I still don't think someone in their 90s would be able to help Booker in the way she seems to.

4: Even if the battle had just started, there would be noise of the airship's engines and propellers.

More importantly though, I would like to as you why is the theory that the entire level takes place in 1984 the status quo? The developers haven't confirmed anything that I know of, so I see no reason why we should "assume" one over the other. 83.111.92.120 04:16, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Not trying to be mean or anything, just making a point.

I'm playing the game right now and am looking/standing right in front of the Tear. After jumping down from the dome, Booker comes to the bridge, and if you stop and look instead of running across, you can see the rushing clouds touching the grey areas of the Tear when the lightning strikes. Replay the level, you'll see it.

As for points 1, 3 & 4, I'm sorry to say it, but the game developers just wanted a big dramatic reveal, plain and simple. To accomplish this they had a silhouetted geriatric woman lift Booker up (so that only at the right moment would you finally see how much time has passed by looking at her aged face) and a silent war raging on in the background (so that the player wouldn't work out that Booker's vision had come true midway through playing the level). The area right behind her is greyed out simply so you can't see the sky bombing of NY, again all for the impact of the big reveal. Sure in a logical world, you'd hear the noise and see the NY skyline lit by explosion and a 90-something woman woldn't be able to lift a full grown man, but this is a game, so the makers do whatever they want for things to be cinematically impactful.

Regarding your second point. You are quite right, it's not coming from the Luteces' Tear like I thought it originally was, but neither is it actually coming from Elizabeth. I went into the ruined operating theater and could clearly see Old Elizabeth standing in the doorway across the room (not being tortured or screaming), then I walked back to Her Loving Embrace and could hear the screams again as I walked back into the theater. The sounds of screaming aren't coming from the Tear or Elizabeth either: the game designers are just screwing with our emotions to build urgency.

You want proof that Booker goes through the Tear on the bridge? How do you explain the fact that it's normal one second and snowing the next (Even Booker notices the difference)? Why is Comstock House a total wreck and then perfectly pristine when Booker is sent back to 1912? Why is Comstock clearly dead and Elizabeth in control of the facility?

As for the 1984 theory, we're not assuming anything, it holds a decent amount of logic: Elizabeth goes with Songbird; Booker follows but (in every alternate universe) is defeated by Songbird; after years of torture, brainwashing, and (finally) the "collar" treatment, Elizabeth bends to Comstock's will and follows in his megalomaniacal footsteps (as evidenced by the mini-tears, Voxophones, and PA system announcements encountered by Booker during the level). That brings us to circa 1984, as she is about to fulfil Comstock's ambition and attack NY, she realizes the extent of what's about to happen, but acknowledges that nothing can stop it now. Instead, she (with all her strength) sends a tear back to 1912 (she now has more focused control over her powers) for Booker to come through so she can give him the coded message to take control of Songbird, then sends him back.

What else makes sense? That we're at some point past 1912 after crossing the bridge and that, at the ledge, Old Elizabeth is simply opening a Tear to the future & showing Booker what happens if he doesn't succeed? Why? What could be the point? I know the screaming makes one think that we're not in the future and that Elizabeth is being tortured by her oppressors, but if you consider the reasons listed above then that reasoning doesn't make sense. If we're not in 1984 for the majority of the level then when are we?

Unownshipper (talk) 07:54, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

No worries when it comes to sounding mean - I totally understand what you're trying to say.

And for most of it, I think its perfectly possible you are right. There is a good chance the developers simply wanted a big reveal, or that the screams where supposed to come from the tear and they just never thought to set it so that they stop when the tear stops. But unless you are member of the development team and know this for a fact, I don't think we should assume thats what is going on. Wouldn't an explanation that actually makes sense in the in-game universe be better then blaming it on mistakes by the developers?

Now personally I'm leaning toward thinking Booker went through a tear on the bridge - I'm not sure as I see evidence both ways, but I'm leaning towards it being the case.

The snow is actually not that hard to explain - higher elevations are colder then below, and Columbia is quite high up. This backed up by the fact that in Shantytown, Elizabeth will warm her hands by the fire - not something you would do in an ordinary July. Furthermore, it thunderstoming after you leave Shantytown for Emporia. Thunderstorms often occur when warm and cold air clash, which means a cool front could be moving in to Columbia as you play through Emporia and later Comstock house. If it is cold enough for Elizabeth to need to warm her hands and then gets even colder, is it that far off to think it may have gotten cold enough to snow?

The more complex problem is the Voxopones throughout Comstock House - if Booker is in 1912, why are there old Elizabeth Voxophones and PA? This doesn't fit at all. One explanation I've considered is that Comstock could have brought such things through tears as proof of his prophecy, which seems like something he would do. The specific Voxophones, though, do not seem like ones he would choose, so this theory is left incomplete. Besides this incomplete theory I am unable to explain the Voxophones, which is why I'm currently leaning toward the idea that Booker does infact go through a tear on the bridge.

Where this tear leads, though, I'm not sure. I still do not think it leads directly to 1984, for the other reasons mentioned above - if Elizabeth wanted to bring you to 1984, she would have brought you directly to her and not just to the general area of Comstock House. You would still have heard something from the battle or airships outside, and the background behind her does change. So as it stands, I personally find it most likely that the you leave Emporia in 1912, go through a tear on the bridge to some point well after 1912 but not 1984, and then go to 1984 on the ledge.

Ofcoarse all of this is directly conflicted by the screaming, which would indicate you're in 1912 the whole time which in turn is directly conflicted by the Voxophones, and so on.

How about we just state all the theories and evidence for each one in the article and let the reader decide what they like the best? That seems to me like the most fair solution, and more information is generally better. 83.111.92.120 09:15, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I realy, Realy, REALY think that would be a bad idea to include the multiple theories in the article. It's not that I don't think the other theory has merit, it's just not fully developed. Admittedly, this wiki has included theories in other pages (Like Jack's aging), but those are more complete. As you've stated above, there are a lot of contradictions, a little too many. The Voxophones for one, the year for another (if we could only theorize when between 1912 & 1984 we are it would be different, but we can't), and the screaming. It would be different if the other thoery was harder to debunk.

You're right about the snow and high elevations, it's just like on the top of Mt. Everest. However, the underlying problem is that it's such a suddden change and the snow and ice around the level is pretty deep and developed (not something that could have suddenly appeared, but rather would have taken a while). When we're sent back to 1912, it's a clear sunny day.

To quote Old Elizabeth, "It took all I had in me just to bring you here." She's old. So she couldn't bring Booker right in front of her (because she isn't strong enough/doesn't have the focus/whatever), just into the future of 1984. Still, I have to blame the game developers because she suddenly has the strength to send you back to 1912 (an undeniable contradiction created by the game makers). More importantly, in a cinematic sense, it makes for a pretty crappy game level to just be brought straight to her and then be sent back in time. This was all planned so that there could be a slow rise to a dramatic reveal, making for a better game level. Double check below.

Unownshipper (talk) 22:12, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Bioshock Infinite - Old Elizabeth

Well the inconsistencies should be mentioned, don't you think? Regardless of whether or not they point to "alternative" theories (I put this in quotes because I still don't see why there is one "main" theory...), they should be mentioned in some sort of Behind the Scenes section. If we mention them there, it doesn't seem like a stretch either to mention the speculation that goes with them.

I'm not sure what you mean by it is a clear and sunny day in 1912 - it may be in Emporia, but that is because you're ahead of the storm. When you get to the bridge, Comstock House roof, and eventually the Hand of the Prophet, it is clearly either storming or cloudy the whole time. 83.111.92.120 03:09, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Butting in here: though your conjecture is interesting, it is still speculation, and so shouldn't go in the main article. I had not actually paid any attention to the "Theories of (sic) Jack's Aging" section, and the fault is mine for not clearing it sooner. If you want to develop on your theory, you could create a forum post or continue here. Also, if this helps, there is heavy snowfall during both Booker's entry into Comstock House and the invasion of New York, so it's likely there is no significant time discrepancy when he passed through the two Tears. --Willbachbakal (talk) 21:31, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

Is there a specific policy that does not allow speculation, and if so, could you link me to it? Speculation, as long as it is relevant and clearly labled as such as opposed to confirmed fact, seems like it would be a constructive and helpful addition to an article.

You have to be really careful about allowing speculation in the main bodies of articles. Even if it's well thought out, people sometimes take that as a pass to put whatever they want in the article, even if the evidence for their arguments is weak or nonexistent. Usually for speculation to be valuable to the main article, it has to be a point of widespread contention. Otherwise, a talkpage usually suffices.

Not to step on the mod's toes, of course. If their answer differs from mine, it trumps.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 16:15, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

Continuing in this regard, does anybody have any idea why old Elizabeth give Booker the C-A-G-E card? If Songbird "always stops him" I assume she means always stops him on the bridge. If this were the case, simply bringing him to another point in time and then returning him shortly later would be enough. Booker doesn't encounter Songbird at any other point for the rest of the game, aside from the final battle when Songbird only appears because Elizabeth breaks the statue. 83.111.92.120 09:22, May 28, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to address three points that I feel have not been adequately discussed before making my main point:

1) "First, assuming this is true, what is the significance of the Lutece encounter? Booker finds them as he nears the end of the snowy part and says "its a tear. What is it?", to which Rosalind replies 'why do you ask what, when the delicious question is when?'"

The significance of that encounter is that Booker thinks he's been trying to break into the Operating Theater the entire time to save Elizabeth, only for her to not actually be there. The Tear DOES play audio--the screaming you hear on the first floor that goads you toward the Restricted entrance is coming from the Tear. Watch it again--when Booker is standing in front of the Tear, Elizabeth's screaming is clearly coming from it, and stops the moment it disappears. The Luteces are there to establish for you that things aren't as they seem, and Booker is not in 1912 like he thought.

2) In regard to 90-year-old Elizabeth pulling Booker up, she doesn't. She is taking his hand, but it's pretty clear that while he's holding it, he's basically crawling onto the ledge under his own power.

3)"Continuing in this regard, does anybody have any idea why old Elizabeth give Booker the C-A-G-E card? If Songbird "always stops him" I assume she means always stops him on the bridge. If this were the case, simply bringing him to another point in time and then returning him shortly later would be enough."

That's not what she means. She means that somewhere along the line, Songbird always defeats Booker before he can save Elizabeth. That could be on the bridge, or anywhere else. In the particular reality that Booker is in, Songbird doesn't come for them until they're on the Hand of the Prophet, but if not for Elizabeth figuring out the code, he would've taken her back and likely murdered Booker.

Now, there's an angle to this whole Comstock House argument that I believe hasn't been adequately addressed, and really does help sort things out: the concept of good storytelling. While good stories can be complex, they are always the simplest version of themselves--they don't add in any unnecessary complications, and everything that happens does for a reason. If this were playing out in reality, could Booker walk from a stormy summer day to a wintery blizzard due to elevation? Absolutely. But in a well-constructed story? Heck no. Everything has a purpose, and the fact that Booker specifically addresses that there's "Snow in July" is meant to draw attention to the fact that things have changed. The lightning on the bridge also serves this function: it disguises Booker passing through the Tear so it's not immediately obvious, but can still be pointed to as the moment when he passes to 1984.

Story construction is also the reason that we can assume this takes place in 1984. There are no hints that this took place during any other time, and no reason that it would--therefore, it doesn't. Having it take place in any other year would be ultimately pointless, as it doesn't add anything to the story. This situation very much calls for Occam's Razor: what is the simplest possible explanation? That Booker passed through a Tear (which we see that he does) and arrives in 1984 (which is the only year we know him to be in). Until we have a compelling reason to suggest that the intent of the developers was for these vents to take place in some other year, we can assume that the simplest path is the best in this regard.

Or, you could say that Irrational is bad at storytelling. I would emphatically disagree, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 16:15, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to post all sorts of things in this comment, so bear with it.

First, the statement that the screaming stops is simply untrue, unless the game was patched. The person in the video does not linger in the area long enough to see. When I did, the screaming continued. At least one other person on this page has had the same experience - scroll up and you'll find it.

This directly conflicts the tear on the bridge theory, meaning to believe in one over the other is speculating that that one is correct. If we go by the no speculation rule, then neither can be mentioned on the article.

This is something you, with no disrespect intended, do not seem to fully understand. Yes, Booker comments on the snow, which is probably the developers trying to draw attention to it. Yes, its possible he is in 1984 the whole time. But because such things are never confirmed, they are speculation as opposed to proven facts. When you say that higher elevation would not make a good story, this is your opinion. Same goes for believing unnecessary complication does not make a good story. Others may disagree, and in any case it is not a proven fact.

Using opinions to justify assumptions is not how encyclopedias are written. When one writes an encyclopedia, one does not assume anything - they state the facts and let the reader decide. As editors and writers, it is not our job to fill in the blanks or try to explain things that aren't explained.

Finally, regardless of whether Elizabeth pulled Booker up or not, the area around them changes. And there is the issue of the noise, which we've mentioned before. Until more is confirmed, I stand by my belief that there is no "correct" theory - Booker may be in 1984 for the entire level, he may not be. Elizabeth may lift him though a tear, or she may not. Regardless of what we believe none of us can be sure, and the article should reflect that.

I hope I don't come across as a jerk - I'm just trying to get my point across. 63.153.167.135 22:23, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

I will first note that during my game, the screaming immediately stopped after the Tear closed--it was dead silence after that. I will conceded that there is disagreement on this point.

However, the same can not be said about the Tear on the bridge. We now have an image in this article of the Tear to show that it exists. Given the disagreement on the previous point, the visual evidence here trumps that.

Encyclopedias generally aren't written about stories. It is very difficult to get "proven facts" in situations such as this, because to be so blatant would ruin the storytelling aspect of the experience. In such cases, we must look at the evidence to determine the most likely explanation for events. I understand that you don't agree with Tear Bridge idea, but it is the one that most thoroughly explains what is going on. The theory you have presented leaves holes where the other does not, such as not explaining where Booker is during the course of the level, or why the Luteces appear to address him. I believe this is the reason why many people believe it is appropriate to say that the Bridge Tear idea is the true course of events, until a more compelling explanation is presented.

As for the points on storytelling, while they may not necessarily be proven facts, neither are they my opinion. They are generally respected convention.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 01:34, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

With regards to "facts" in stories, see this page related to the concept of "canon". This is system is used on alot of wikis for fictions, such as the Star Wars and World of Warcraft wikis. It generally seems to be used here as well, which is good and should continue. The nature of Comstock House, the tears, and timelines in general, though, make keeping track of canon much harder then it would normally be.

If many people want to believe the bridge tear theory, that is fine. It is their choice. If you or I want to believe that theory as well that too is fine, but to put it on the wiki is suggesting it is not just the beliefs of you, I, or "many people" - rather, it suggests it is established fact, or "canon."

For now I'll live with a mention of the tear on the page. The picture seems like strong evidence, and the only real evidence to the contrary is the screaming. As long as we don't then jump to the conclusion that the bridge tear leads to 1984, I'll let this discussion rest. I would, however, be interested to hear your theories on the screaming. Is it just a glitch? Seems rather odd if it is, as I don't recall any other tear having similar problems. 63.153.167.135 02:18, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I am aware of canon, and understand it is the material regarded as fact for a specific storyline. However, canon does not necessarily have to do with solid, proven facts, because often they don't exist--it has much more to do with what scenario has the most obvious and compelling evidence to support it. The article you linked to doesn't mention a distinction between the two.

(I think it's also worth noting that in a lot of cases, good evidence and general consensus tend to determine canon until Word of God says otherwise. I know of at least one wiki where the canon on a given situation is never explicitly stated, but the evidence for one interpretation is so overwhelming that that interpretation is roundly regarded as canon--which is then, sometimes, reinforced by the devs.)

As for the differences in the screaming, I will have to play it again to be sure, but a glitch or faulty coding seems to be the best explanation. I can't imagine it was the intended for different players to experience different occurrences of the screaming, particularly since it is so critical to understanding what has happened through the whole of the level. Bioshock has had small issues with coding before--removing the audio from the vending machines in Bioshock 2, for instance--but it's odd that it wouldn't affect all games in the same way. I'm working on a playthrough right now, so hopefully I get to that part soon enough to check it out for myself. I might even be able to get a recording for good measure.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 15:30, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Speculation is speculation. Even if something has obvious and compelling facts to support it, it is still speculation. If we want to post speculation such as the Comstock House takes place in 1984 theory in the article then I'm honestly in support of that, but I was told above articles are not supposed to have speculation.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to remove this no speculation rule (which I'm not sure even exists in the first place...) and instead allow the mentioning of inconsistencies and facts with the theories to support them. Or, we can just leave it like it is now, which until we get to the bottom of the screaming issue I am fine with. 63.153.164.37 21:15, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I just played through this section of the game, and I feel like I can shed some light on this now.

The screaming is very much coming from the tear. Once you get close enough, it has that tinny sound that all dialogue from the tears has, and it does stop when the tear closes. I heard some noises that sounded like screaming after the tear had closed, but upon closer inspection it was the sound of squealing metal--basically, the building shifting.

In addition, for an added note of clarification, if you wait to approach Elizabeth and listen to the ambient sounds of the room, then approach her, the sounds of what's going on outside are only slightly louder on the ledge than they are in the room.

While I don't have the equipment to make one myself, if anyone would like a recording of the sounds, I can probably ask a friend of mine to whip something together.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 00:47, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

:I'm almost 100% sure I would not have mistaken the creeking of the building for screams. I'll investigate more eventually - I plan on doing another playthough at some point, probably in the coming week or so. 63.153.130.221 07:56, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

I actually managed to get a recording fairly quicky, so I'll go ahead and link it here.

Here is a recording of the scene from when Booker gets off the elevator, to right before old Elizabeth starts talking. At 0:31, you can hear the creaking, otherwise the area's pretty quiet.

Here is a comparison between the two sounds. The first five seconds is before the tear closes, the next five seconds is after. You can hear the creaking at 0:07.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 05:54, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't sound like creaking at all... to be fair it doesn't sound like the screams either, its just overall a very strange noise. Can't say if thats what I heard or not. In any case, I think for now we should keep the article as it is. 63.153.169.187 03:59, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Tears and Timelines... the Confusion Continues

Right, I've wandered over this debate a bit, and I'm fairly certain we can agree that Booker does goe through a Tear on the bridge, there is solid proof of that in the screenshot I posted. But where does this Tear go? I say 1984, and here's why:

The Voxaphones: the entire Comstock House level is full of voxaphones from an older Elizabeth, we can't be sure of her age because the voxaphone image is one photo from when Elizabeth is younger. However, these voxaphones are proof that Booker goes at the very least 6 months after Songbird takes Elizabeth, since she has already begun to spout Comstock-like madness, so she has succumbed to his methods most likely as a result of her implant. However, Old Elizabeth says that it's time that ruined her not torture, especially proven as Elizabeth is still just as resistant six months after being taken, and probably remains resistant after the surgery. So we are transported a long time after her surgery.

However, the very last voxaphone in the lift going back from the warden's office sounds a LOT like the Old Elizabeth we meet, with a raspy voice talking about bringing Booker through a Tear. When you then add the fact that it's apparently extremely difficult for Old Elizabeth to use her powers, it seems most likely that she would only use as many Tears as necessary, i.e. one there and one back again. Why not bring him directly to her? She'struggling to use her powers, maybe she can only bring him through time NOT space. Notice how Booker is physically in the same place after going through the bridge Tear, and how the place Old Elizabeth looks over New York from is a torn open room, not a balcony. It seems most likely that Old Elizabeth can only move Booker through time and not across space, and that the room she sends you back to on the day Elizabeth has the operation is the same room that has been torn open as you look onto New York in flames, only intact.

Now, the screaming issue. There are a few reasons that may explain this, but mainly it can be asserted that these screams can't possibly be heard in 1912 as the room that you hear her screaming in is a long way away from any torture or medical rooms, which are all several floors above Booker. Unless Elizabeth has the lungs of an elephant, it seems almost impossible to hear screams that loud without her being right in front of you. Could they be played through speakers to demoralise Booker or the Tear guys in the masks? Again, not likely as Columbia hasn't developed HD surround sound yet and speakers still crackle like voxaphones, so to hear such clear screaming it can't possibly come through any sort of aritficial speaker system.

So there's only really one answer: the screams are coming through one of the many broken Tears that are littered across Comstock House. But Booker can't open Tears, and Tears to key moments in Elizabeth's life in Comstock House are just too convenient. It could be argued that these were actually attempts by younger Elizabeth to escape Comstock House, half-open Tears leading from points where she could still access her powers which were never closed, but never fully opened since the Siphon kept her powers in check. Remember that graph in Monument Island that said her powers were getting stronger even after the Siphon was installed? That's why they installed the device to suppress her power usage, she was overcoming the effects of the Siphon, and these small Tears are evidence of that, especially since there are no small Tears leading to any time after the operation.

So that explains the smaller Tears, but WHEN does Booker go back? It's a bloody long time after 1912 we can confirm that much, and the screaming in the lobby can only come through these small Tears, so the screaming isn't "live" and must have happened in the past, these small unsuccessful Tears created in desperation by Elizabeth as she was being tortured. For all we know there is a Tear in the lobby, that's being amplified so we don't have to be near to it. But what could amplify these screams so much, and cause the echoing effect that's with them?

The ELEVATOR SHAFT. I reckon there's a Tear in the elevator shaft in the lobby where Booker hears these screams, it would explain why they're so loud but echoing, it would explain why we can't see this Tear, and it would explain how we can hear these screams even when all other evidence suggests that Booker is sent to 1984.

Fact is this: there is FAR more evidence to suggest that Comstock House takes place in 1984, and almost nothing to suggest that we're still close to 1912. If anything is speculation, it's that Comstock House isn't in 1984. Speculations rules must be enforced if we're going to put it in a wiki page, but I think we can assume that the level does take place in 1984 because of the overwhelming evidence to support it. We can't put in my little theory about the Tear in the elevator shaft because that's pure speculation. But otherwise we should either state that the level takes place in 1984 in the main body of the page, or not mention any dates and put under "Behind the Scenes" or whatever that all evidence (and potentially fact, this is pretty overwhelming evidence) states that the level is in 1984. Or we could give in and ask Ken on twitter or something. Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 22:06, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

And then again, have a look at this thread: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?238696-Tear-outside-of-the-window-at-Comstock-House could this be where Elizabeth's screams are coming from? You can actually see this Tear. Again this is potentially speculation, but this could explain which Tear these screams are coming from, and finalise that the level definitely takes place in 1984. Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 22:21, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I've started this under a new section, hopefully making it easier to find and edit.

From nearly birth until 1912, Elizabeth lived in a tower alone. Thoughout the game she is portrayed as being a sheltered intellectual, with no experience or interest in violence. Over about two days all this changes, and suddenly she's strapped to a chair suffering electrical torture. The only person who can save her seems to have abandoned her or worse, have been killed. She's probably sleep deprived, is known to have gone for long periods without eating, and is left without her only means of defending herself or fighting back. And again, she's not some sort of Navy SEAL badass who's trained to deal with such a situation. With this in mind, I cannot imagine it taking decades - or even years - for Comstock and friends to break her. It might have taken a little longer for her to forgive them of what they did and fully accept their philosophy, but there is tons of time between 1912 and 1984 for this to happen.

And with additional regard to the Voxophones, think about where you find them in general. Booker's final Voxophone is in the hands of Fink, despite the fact that it was recorded by Booker and given to Fitroy. A Fitroy Voxophone is found in an office at the strongly Founders Soldier's Field. Why would a Founder supporter have a Fitzroy Voxophone? If the owner was a secret Vox Populi, why would he just leave it sitting in the open? Why would Hatti Gerst's journal-like Voxophone be out in the open, nowhere near her or seemingly anything she had a connection to? Why would there be a Fitzroy Voxophone related to Booker in Chen Lin's shop? Why would Wilber Sykes create a Voxophone basically confessing to losing an important key? While some Voxophones seem deliberately placed at a specific location in the world, other seem to just be there to reveal a certain part of the story at a certain time. The Voxophone argument is the strongest evidence suggesting the level takes place in 1984. Given the questionable placement of Voxophones, though, I'm not sure we can rely on this evidence as much as it would first seem.

I'm also not sure what you mean when you say Columbia hasn't developed decent sound. Elizabeth PA is a recording playing over speakers, and sounds fine. So does the founders fear-mongering PA at the beginning of the game, and the Fink spam you hear in the Plaza of Zeal. Would you consider all these examples to be low-quality, crackling noise?

You never address the biggest problem with the 1984 theory, either: the change on the ledge. The sky behind Elizabeth clearly changes when she pulls you up. Furthermore, as you head down the hallway towards old Elizabeth, you can actually look up and see blue daytime sky though a hole in the ceiling. When she lifts you onto the ledge to see New York just seconds later, its clearly night time. Also, the sound of the battle isn't present until she lifts you, and then suddenly it is. I'll agree there isn't much evidence suggesting it takes place in 1912 - but there are also major problems with the theory that it takes place in 1984.

If you want to not mention any dates and put under "Behind the Scenes" or whatever all evidence for and against all the theories, I'm completely down with that. Infact, thats basically what I did with the "Inconsistencies" section, before the "Inconsistencies" section was removed. All the evidence for all the theories stated clearly as being speculation would be the ideal setup in my opinion, as it states the facts and arguments while also letting the reader decide. 63.153.164.37 23:46, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistancies

(Moved this section from main page to talk page as it contains speculation)

The level features many inconsistances and plot holes, most involving the tears thoughout the first section.

• The sudden appearance of snow as Booker crosses bridge seems to suggest he passes though a tear, though the sounds of Elizabeth's screams thoughout the level suggest he is still in 1912.
• When Elizabeth pulls Booker onto the ledge, the world around him changes. This strongly suggests he passes though a tear at this point, though their is no direct confirmation. The absence of sound followed by noise of the battle further strengthens this theory.
• The existance of old Elizabeth Voxophones and PA system suggest the entire level takes place at some point after 1912.

(Unownshipper (talk) 05:59, May 28, 2013 (UTC))

"she is continuing Comstock's work and will not only drown the world below in holy fire, but also continue this act across a million other worlds. She states that the mind, in order to be "purified," must be exposed to every version of itself,"

Whom the gods destroy..... linky

?? More evidence the whole thing takes place in the mind of a mental patient  in an insane asylum. ??

A Sofia Lamb level of delusion....

She gives him a coded message and opens a Tear, sending Booker back in time to 1912.

Quantum physics does not have much at all to do with time travel.  The whole time travel paradox problem has been endlessly discussed and simply posed too many problems. The shifting across dimensions thru "tears" is similarly not part of quantum physics except that that one multiverse theory says there are an infinite number of multiple universes constantly being created which is a generally rejected theory because it requires discarding too many other basics of science like Conservation of Energy and Matter. It breaks more than it resolves. If dimensions could be crossed between,  each may have differently moving/displaced time allowing the appearace of time travel, though it also could have completely different cascading events and people, not just slightly different ones ones.   Throughout the whole game when Booker and Elizabeth jump through "tears", they are simply going someplace else and anything they do in that new place has no further affect on the previous dimension they inhabited.  Fetching items and bringing them back still has no actual effect as the splitting off of dimensions has continued, and anything they attempt to reenter is itself now just one of an infinite number of dimensions proceding from the place they originally left.

Please don't forget to sign. As for time travel and quantum physics Wikipedia has a article on it, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics_of_time_travel ) so there is a connection someplace. Also as shown by the Sea of Doors there is not such as time in the Bioshock universe, just the illusion of it. Most of Elizabeth's Tears actually merge two different realities together in some form. This is why when Booker and Elizabeth go through a tear in the Bull House basement you find people that remember being dead when they go back up stairs. sm --Solarmech (talk) 14:21, May 21, 2016 (UTC)

New York - '84 or '83?

I noticed something in the scene with burning, future New York; On one of the buildings, there's a scrolling newsfeed reading:12/31/83 EVACUATION ALERT...COLUMBIA SKY CITY THREATENS NEW YORK

Did anyone else notice this? Or has this been discussed already, and I'm too dumb to find it? (in which case, just ignore this...)

Jane St. Valentine (talk) 02:08, May 21, 2016 (UTC))

It boils down to do you think that it's before or after midnight. So either is late at night on Dec 31, 1983 or Early in the morning on Jan 1, 1984. But does it really make much of a difference? sm --Solarmech (talk) 14:24, May 21, 2016 (UTC)

But does it really make much of a difference?

I suppose not, but I did think it was an interesting tidbit to share. Plus, I wanted to test the waters before mindlessly editing something...

(Jane St. Valentine (talk) 00:00, May 22, 2016 (UTC))