Talk: Downtown Emporia

"but by the time that Booker and Elizabeth visit the district, it has fallen into ruin due to the actions of the Vox Populi."

should probably mention the thing about the alternate timeline  (Booker and Elizabeth jumping to one where the gun maker was able to supply the Vox with sufficient guns instead of being exeuted in the original Timeline/Alternate universe

SO it would be something more like  "when Booker and Elizabeth see it in an Alternate Universe""

75.36.140.87 21:28, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

{{Levels}} template

Is this an actual level in the game, or is it just a part of the level Emporia? If it's not a level, then it doesn't belong in the template. ~Gardimuer  ^{ ʈalk } 13:31, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Evidence of trade with the surface?

Was making screenshots of Downtown Emporia and noticed something odd. Both in Harmony Lane and in the back room of the Cunningham Studios are boxes with Chinese writing on them. I find this odd to say the least. But it could be evidence that Columbia was trading with China. Indirectly of course. There wouldn't be much if any govt oversight of trade at the time. Wish we could find someone to translate what they said. sm --Solarmech (talk) 15:06, April 22, 2020 (UTC)

They just look like generic props. The texture filenames are PostOfficeBoxes_DIFF and PostOfficeBags_DIFF and they're found in the wharf_Set, implying you'd also find them in Finkton.

https://imgur.com/a/Z0l7Ba8

It doesn't look like the developers were paying much attention to this area. The Bolton Photography nameplates are backwards on the cameras and even the English "Fragile" and "USA" labels on the packages are backwards.

The Chinese characters are backwards too. They probably just thought to drop some generic post office packages into the area and hope it was too dark to see anything. Though the characters don't really make sense either.

Upper left one is 下午茶 for "Afternoon Tea" and the package to the right has a bunch of random 四 stamped all over it which means "4".

Below that is an upside down 二十 "20" and 狗 "dog". Next to it is a 一萬 "ten thousand" and below it, 二十 and 一萬 are overlain on top of each other for some reason.

Upper right is 湯力水 "tonic water" and some random 二千 "two thousand" stamped all over it.

I believe there are some pieces of paper with Chinese characters meaning "open" in the corner of the windows on the doors in the Town Center as generic textures. Maybe there was a larger plan for this that got scrapped and some remnants were overlooked in the generic textures. UpgradeTech (talk) 21:35, April 22, 2020 (UTC)

Think you are right about these boxes were part of a large plan that got cut. The Chinese citizens of Columbia may have been intended to play a bigger part in the plot but it didn't make it. Some more evidence can be found on the big bridge that gets destroyed by Songbird during the breakout from Monument Island. There are carts on the bridge hauling stuff labeled in Chinese. Nuts. Must have deleted the screenshots. sm --Solarmech (talk) 21:58, April 22, 2020 (UTC)

I've seen those packages as well, I figured it was some of the Chinese citizens that sent mail to each other, or perhaps there was some Chinese manufacturer, like Chen Lin, in the city that labeled things with his native language. Columbia was not cut off from the surface like Rapture, as they still greeted newcomers at the Welcome Center, and I think it is assumed that you could also leave(?) So trade might not be too farfetched, although that raises more questions and we'd need more evidence. But in all honesty, I think it is just leftover props from an early build.

Yeah I don't know what happened to the back of Cunningham Studios, when I did the Bolton Photography page I noted that it is not very well made. I really don't care for the flipping of renders with text as it breaks the illusion and the area is also hard to navigate: you can get stuck in some corners. Feels a bit rushed for being a plot point.

Interesting about Shane & Mathew's Dandruff, I thought it was exclusive to Clash in the Clouds. I can't seem to locate the model though in the main game.

--Shacob (talk) 22:29, April 22, 2020 (UTC)

Downtown Emporia is a bit strange. There are some well designed areas with good set pieces. The Financial District, the Bank of the Prophet and the Market District. But then you have the Cunningham Studio's back room here with reversed textures. How does that happen for an entire room and why wasn't it picked up by QA? Then there is Victory Square, Emporia Towers and Harmony Lane. In Victory Square the area opposite of the entrance to Comstock House is boring/empty. There seems to have been a cut side quest in Emporia Towers and Harmony Lane is a desolate area with crates in it. This is busy high class area and it doesn't fit at all. I get the impression that Downtown Emporia didn't get the attention it needed. Or maybe it was pieced together from different sources/levels.

As for contact with the surface, Columbia couldn't exist without a large amount of trade. Columbia has no source of raw materials. No wood, iron ore and even many types of food. (Yes, I have thought about this.) Can you imagine how it would be to grow corn and wheat aboard Columbia? You would need to have huge rafts of land covering miles. I figure Columbia's population is a least half a million people and it could be a lot more. That's a lot of food that would be needed. Columbia can't trade openly with the surface as I imagine the US govt is more than a little unhappy with Columbia and it's people. So it has to buy stuff through front companies and middlemen. And do so in areas with as little government (any government) oversight as possible. China would fit the bill for that. No proof in those boxes though. sm --Solarmech (talk) 11:13, April 23, 2020 (UTC)

From what I remember reading through comments on a video that featured various development clips awhile back, it seems that several assets shown in the original Emporia, which was showcased in the 2011 demo, appear (albeit altered) in other parts of the game, which could lend to its more condensed size in the final game. One example is one of the shops located in Soldier’s Field that resembles the “Major’s Notions and Sundries” but it’s definitely not the only instance. The Chinese writing on the crates is also interesting and makes me wonder if they were in any way related to anything with the Vox Populi or simply just the Chinese population in the city in general as well.

In terms of resources, I think it’s more likely Columbia supports itself through self-sufficient means. That might sound pretty far-fetched but let’s keep in mind that not only had both it and Rapture provided for itself as well, beyond its own agriculture but most of the food found in Columbia are marked with a “Finkton” label, which leads me to believe they produce food through a method not seen by us. Both cities do have access to retro-technology and respectively cut themselves off from the surface so Fink MFG could be producing food in a manner that doesn’t require as much space to be dedicated to it, further with building materials collected without dealings with surface organizations through their own use of airships. However, this is my opinion given Infinite possesses more fantasy elements.

Another note on Columbia potentially maintaining more direct contact with the world below through open trade and travel, that’s implied to have ceased entirely after its succession. While it was still accepting “pilgrims” through the lighthouse rocket sites, it’s not likely the general population used their transportation to visit any places aside from other stretches of the city since it was stated to have “disappeared into the clouds” as put in a kinetoscope, along with the alternate 1983/4 future, and information discussed in Truth from Legend. --H. Roosevelt (talk) 04:23, April 24, 2020

Comparing Columbia and Rapture in terms of being self sufficient is not a good comparison. Rapture is underwater and it literally surrounded by different resources. There are large amounts of fish, several different types of eatable seaweeds (which are highly nutritious) for food. There is plenty of rock around and given that there is a nearby volcanism there should be materials like bauxite, lead, nickle and even gold around. For steel all you need to do is find sunken ships from the World Wars. And there are a lot of those in the Mid Atlantic.

What does Columbia have? Air. That's it. *All* raw material Columbia have to be brought up from the surface. Soil for plants, bricks used in buildings and iron ore for Finkton's steel plants and more. While Columbia certainly stocked up before it "vanished", those supplies would only last so long. Sooner or later they would have needed supplies from the surface. And since Columbia "vanished", they would have to do it in a way that no one would know. This is actually much easier than you would think. Reflagg and rename a ship and it can be hard to track down. And that's with computers and a system in place (established 1987) to track ships no matter what the name and flag is. Back 50 or 100 years ago no such system existed. A front company for Columbia could legally buy 1,000 tons of grain for shipment to Africa or someplace else. The grain is packed on a ship and it heads for Africa. Out in the Atlantic, Columbian barges come down and offload the grain and the ship gets reflagged/renames and maybe some new paint and is off to another port for another load of cargo. Of course no one ever reports the ship or cargo missing and no one is the wiser. sm --Solarmech (talk) 11:35, April 24, 2020 (UTC)

Seems I uploaded the image of the carts and forgot about it. Gezz, the textures on this are backwards as well.

sm --Solarmech (talk) 12:31, April 24, 2020 (UTC)

That's CartLoad_DIFF.tga from the folder Cart_Load, non-reversed.

https://i.imgur.com/nyfkqe9.png

The red package and the brown box have 烏鴉藥水 which is literally "Crow Potion" which may be the localization for Murder of Crows. There's a piece that's ripped out of the other red characters, but it looks like 衣着 or "clothes". The other brown package has 神水 which is not "holy water" but more literally "god water". It could be the localization for Vigor or maybe swapped characters for "water god" or Undertow. Though I can find there are localization files for Japanese and Korean for Bioshock Infinite, but not Chinese. Odd to consider Vigors being made in China and imported to Columbia. UpgradeTech (talk) 18:56, April 24, 2020 (UTC)

Turns out I needed to download the files. There are no matches for those exact terms in the localization for the Vigors. Unless this is some sort of slang. This is a selection from UserInterface.cht

HoldBuckingBronco=裝備「奔騰野馬」時，按住[Fire Plasmid]後鬆開可留下一個「奔騰野馬」陷阱。

HoldCharge=裝備「颶風衝擊」時，按住[Fire Plasmid]後鬆開可以讓衝擊更強勁。

HoldDevilsKiss=裝備「惡魔之吻」時，按住[Fire Plasmid]後鬆開可製造一個爆炸陷阱。

HoldMurderOfCrows=裝備「殺戮烏鴉」時，按住[Fire Plasmid]後鬆開可製造一個鴉巢陷阱。

HoldPossession=裝備「攝魂迷心」時，按住[Fire Plasmid]後鬆開可留下一個「攝魂迷心」陷阱。

HoldReturnToSender=裝備「聚能反射」時，按住[Fire Plasmid]可讓護盾蓄能。\n護盾蓄能時會持續消耗魔鹽。釋放護盾可將吸引到的子彈反射回去！

HoldReturnToSenderTrap=裝備「聚能反射」時，按住[Fire Plasmid]後鬆開可製造一個陷阱。\n對著陷阱開火可為它充能，讓其被觸發時造成更多的傷害！

HoldShockJockey=裝備「雷霆震击」時，按住[Fire Plasmid]後鬆開可製造電擊陷阱。\n這些陷阱可相互連結形成破壞性的電流網。

HoldUndertow=裝備「暗潮洶湧」時，按住[Fire Plasmid]後鬆開可以抓住並捲起敵人作為懲罰。

UpgradeTech (talk) 19:21, April 24, 2020 (UTC)

The part of the map I found the bridge and the carts is clearly from early in development. There are a number of signs/advertisements that are from that time period such as a "Mesmerism" billboard. This is all outside Monument Island and you're not supposed to get a good enough look to see anything. (Need to do some "boundary breaking" to get pics again). (Sorry it looked like the stuff on the cart was reversed) As for Chinese "Crow Potion" that has got to be from really early in production. Like close to when Columbia was Art Nouveau. Vigors and their use was going to be a lot more common then and the city was a hellhole like Rapture was when Jack arrived. I noticed on the packages on CartLoad_DIFF.tga (Bottom left) have what look to be French addresses on them. And boxes that say "Approve USA" on the right. "衣着 or "clothes"" might that be "cloth"? Of course there is the possibility that Irrational didn't get good translations and we are off in the weeds. :) sm --Solarmech (talk) 20:14, April 24, 2020 (UTC)

It’s hard to tell. Rapture also had generic letters and envelopes with hard to read addresses scattered on the floor. These look like they read “Broadway, New York”, “Carlisle”, and “New Zealand”. There’s a semi-famous Carlisle in the UK, but it could refer to a lot of places in the US. UpgradeTech (talk) 20:40, April 24, 2020 (UTC)

My explanation is simply taking into account that a retro-futuristic city which exists in fiction isn’t going to fit like a puzzle piece in terms with real-world standards of how it would sustain itself. To Solarmech’s credit, it is a fair to suggest re-marked ships with gathering resources on the surface. I had also noted the possible use of airships that may assist in some capacity and the “Finkton” labels perhaps reflecting processing rather than origin in a similar line of thought. Of course Columbia and Rapture wouldn’t be an apples to apples comparison, given the latter the access would have to resources you mentioned in the ocean but it shouldn’t come as too much of a surprise that video game developers don’t attempt to portray every aspect of their fictional world in a hyper realistic manner.

In regards to the crates containing Chinese writing on the bridge in the images provided, I come to think they were meant to be packaging done by Chinese workers of Fink MFG. Marking them in their language for later separation and loading onto freights. Columbia uses its minorities as labor for production but that’s a fine stretch different than business exchanges with a country which capital it decimated.--H. Roosevelt (talk) 00:46, April 25, 2020