Talk: My Prison

Prison ...

Of course the 'Rapture Family' was only part of the inmate poulation.  There were the criminals and the insane and dangerous insane.   Its not made clear why Sinclair didnt tell Ryan about the situation 'down there' so that they could take control back (do what they did to the criminals in  'Fontaines Department Store') and clean them all out/ restore order/secure the place.   If Ryan's forces were too busy, then containment and turn off the air and power until Lamb and whatever other instigators surrendered themselves.

Thats actually how they handled things in those days.

75.36.137.161 11:50, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Now why would Ryan do that if Sinclair had inmates sold into "willing" test subjects for plasmids tests as well as candidates for the Big Daddy program. Ryan was definitely not going to have his citizens put through that (of course, unless they were willing to get paid to Enrage Trial). In retrospect, it is Sinclairs fault that many became part of the Rapture Family in the prison, since he had Lamb mediate the prisoners since they were becoming too rowdy. And its never said that everyone came under the wing of the Rapture Family, some were forced like the warden, and others just disregarded it (lack of mention from Louie Macgraff, Porter, etc.)

And now, I can't remember if the books describes the prisoners in Persphone, but from the game a majority of the prisoners were just people who Ryan wanted to disappear, people who were spreading "lies" about him and Rapture or who went against his vision (Sofia Lamb, Johnny Topside, Charles Milton Porter, Harold Parson, etc.). And many were unspliced (as far as I can tell, correct me if I'm wrong) until Sinclair initiated his "Fail-Safe Industries" that offered inmates special treatment and accomadations via selling them as test subjects.

It was only after the Rapture Civil War initiated that Lamb overtook the facility and ousted Sinclair. And I'm pretty sure Ryan had Atlas and his "thugs" in mind instead of Lamb, who after retrieving Eleanor retreated back into the prison and remained dormant for the most part until Ryan's death. Also, as far as I know, Ryan could have had limited control per se except for his own assets (Hephaetus, Arcadia, etc. with the exception of the self-destruction mechanism to destroy the city??) since even Cohen was able to silence him out and prevent both Atlas and Ryan from intervening in his domain. Not to mention, the Thinker automated everything and by then was controlled by Reed Wahl, who wanted control of the the Thinker for his selfish wants and needs.

Now Bioshock, as with other works of fiction (even those based in "real world" or based on real "stories") elements have to work to the story or else there'd be no story to begin with. Bioshock wouldn't be Bioshock if what happened didn't happened. It'd be a different game, and in my honest opinion, I don't see it being anything else. Tricksteroffools (talk) 21:25, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

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"why would Ryan do that" - that action would be after Lamb took over the facility (no more test subjects then, no?) and likely all the criminals would be freed to menace the City which already had enough problems.

"but from the game a majority of the prisoners were just people who Ryan wanted to disappear" look again at the various inmates (and the ones not so obvious like those cells that are plated over to contain the really violent ones).   The game writers may have tried to imply (by omission and inclusion of atypicals) that everyone there was just a victim of 'evil' Ryans tyranny, but many of them were criminals and  the dangerously insane.

" the Thinker automated everything" is an exaggeration and you cant 'automate' repair and maintenance which likely was required even more by the damage done by Atlas's terrorists.  Ryan would have more than just a little control, and he would have the support of the majority of Rapture's citizens against a destructive minority.

"have to work to the story"    which is all made up new together (its not like its from some well known story or myth to restrict them).  Keep the ideas that they came up with, but be more careful in making the details reflect real world patterns (for the time it reflects) and cohesive details.  Most of the issues could have been corrected  if composed/correlated right from the start (and alot was just 'talk' details and not more complicated game assets).

75.36.139.166 02:04, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

The reasons why Ryan didn't personally intervene are potentially numerous.

Maybe he was too focused on the war and Atlas. Maybe Sinclair was caught in a position where he couldn't easily communicate with anyone during the war. Maybe Sinclair didn't tell him b/c he expected Weir to take care of the situation better and wasn't overseeing him properly. Sinclair already stated that he didn't care to visit Pauper's Drop (Level), where a significant business interest of his was located, so why would he want to personally stroll down to Persephone. Sinclair seems like the kind of guy to delegate tasks rather than directly get involved. If this is the case, then (clearly) his trust in Weir was misplaced as he didn't expect Weir to fall for Lamb's cunning.

Lamb might have tried to keep the Family and herself off Ryan's radar for as long as possible, so it seems unlikely that she'd let loose the criminals. As for other test experiments, the Sinclair Solutions Home Consumer Rewards Program was for. Live field trials, quick return. The results might not have been clinical, but the participants would suffice as test subjects.

Likely, but we dont have details of how fast things took off in the Civil War or when Lamb literally took over Persephone. But eventually Ryan would learn of it.   And the answer above is not about 'when' but about 'why' Ryan might have taken the actions I mentioned to fix that stuation.  

"but many of them were criminals and the dangerously insane."

…Says you. What gives you the right to deem such a significant portion of the people sent there as such when the only accounts from diaries are of contrarian politicals disappearing? Did you find the detailed prison records hidden deep within the game files and just haven't told us or are you basing this assumption after the behavior of the Splicers encountered in the level. After being subjected to the horrendous living conditions, body and mind-warping experiments, and soul-crushing grief of being "erased," I'd like to see you come out sane and civilized.

Says the cells with the plated over openings - "High Security, Stay Back", and all the padded cells, isolation tanks, shock therapy rigs and the 'therapyizing' that Sinclair had Lamb do to pacify  the inmates.  Hard to ignore the substantial wings for "Infirmary" and "Therapy"  .. yes thats all just to coddle some seditionists and people who just gave Ryan a bad look.

Then there is the rest of the place laid out in typical 'hard time' prison  fashion, which you hardly need do to handle political exiles (remember Ryan is 'cheap' and wouldnt foot the bill for something unless its was needed).   More logical to simply dump them into some remote/cutoff 'exile' colony area (the Fontaine's Dept Store idea - except wrong for common criminals sent there)  where they can live apart from the laws and rules (social contract) they rejected.   

You dont need all those typical prison processing facilities if the inmates were 'hush hush' disappear'd  people.       Persephone is a jail, prison and insane asylum all wrapped into one (cost effective to consolidate, and probably built particularly when the numbers of the violently insane started to skyrocket due to ADAM).

"only accounts from diaries are of contrarian politicals disappearing"  you mean like Louie McGraff out of the meager selection we are provided with  (we really didnt hear much about criminal justice in Rapture, the processes, the law enforcement)  but you simply have to count the number of cells there are.

being "erased,  apart from a mention of Lamb (which sound more like 'out of sight out of mind'  removal from poisoning Rapture's society, versus her being 1984'd out of  all existing records) ?   Did you find some hidden assets and unused Audio diaries that ever mention    'being erased'    for anyone else?  

Even Persephone being 'secret' - seriously how secret could it be when it had a Rapture Metro station (boarded up by BS2).   Prison is a 'threat'  made to criminals of what they will get if they break societies laws.   Why have the big decorative statues you see on the first viaduct entryway if it wasnt built to impress?

"why Sinclair didnt tell Ryan about the situation 'down there' so that they could take control back (do what they did to the criminals in 'Fontaines Department Store')"

Why do you bring that up as though theses occurrences were actually going on in the same narrative when it was a whole different creative team that came up with BAS?

Brought up because its continuing of the writers vision (or has BaS been declared as  non-Canon now ?) even if they botched alot of it in the BaS DLC  (they didnt completely change the theme to the   Hello Kitty, My Little Pony Holy War Sagas, though associating it with Columbia is close)

It shows a continuation of what happened at the Shootout at Neptunes Bouty that Ryan didnt just sit back and let things happen without being able to take strong violent action.

"but be more careful in making the details reflect real world patterns (for the time it reflects) and cohesive details.  Most of the issues could have been corrected  if composed/correlated right from the start"

That last part just gets me. To quote Don Meredith: "If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas?"

Havent YOU complained about the hack job they did on  BaS ?

Another example is the hack/hype job they did with the allegedly 'historical' nature  lending social issue significance to Columbia Infinite BS.  It  would be laughable if it wasnt so pathetic after they talked it up so much and then delivered that.

Oh and you misused the quote because its about people giving excuses, not critique.

What's the point of bringing all of that up NOW? What's done is done! I suppose if you had been on the design team then there'd be no story issues at all. Well there are. Do you want a rerelease of BioShock 2 with all the faults resolved? Has something like that ever happened?

Pointing out the flaws to see if they can be resolved via discussion is one thing, but doing it just to shake our heads at the writers and posit what could have been just gets annoying after a while.

Unownshipper (talk) 23:44, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Done is done -- UNTIL the next game they perpetrate.   The idea is to try to get them to make the games better.     If anything it will continue to get worse after they see people continueing to shelling out their money for inferior products.   The only thing that might get their (the game company's) attention would be  :  If for the same cost and a little care they turned out a superior product they would likely sell ALOT more copies of the game.    Thats ALL they really care about.

75.36.141.221 03:48, August 9, 2014 (UTC)

For all your criticisms of the games being so historically inaccuarate, the kind of excessive overreach depicted (plated-over openings, isolation tanks, and shock therapy) seems perfectly in keeping with the time period of the late '40s/early '50s American prison.

The definition of an infirmary is "a place in a large institution for the care of those who are ill." NOTHING about that designates its users as violent or crazy. As for a Therapy wing, it doesn't surprise me that there'd be an attempt to "reprogram" politcal dissidents to be more in line with . Both facilites become ESPECIALLY necessary once the Plasmid experiments begin.

RYAN IS CHEAP??? Ryan's not cheap (Sinclair is)! Absolutely nowhere is it mentioned that Ryan is cheap (He built a city seperate from society for God's sake). Also, Ryan may be seriously messed up, but he's not without morals (at least not early on). If he were, he'd just directly kill people who went against him (like he did with Jasmine Jolene or Julie Langford). By building the penal colony, he can assuage his conscience knowing that he's removed the problem without spilling their own blood. Similarly, the human thing to do is to provide these individuals with medical care to prevent the spread of illness.

As for the processing aspect, it's not so much "hard time" as it is regimented and regulated. This facility is laid out in precise fashion for control. Just because they're political prisoners doesn't mean it's going to be light security. These people were taken against their will, do you think they won't try to escape. The layout is meant to crush their hope/will to resist as well.

Since you make a point of labelling it both a prison and a jail, ask yourself this: Do you think the average person who got in a drunken bar fight was sent to Persephone? How about someone found guilty in Rapture's court system of accidental homicide? Theft? Embezzlement? Fraud? Perjury?

Rapture MUST have had a jail (maybe not a massive one, but one). I can't believe that people guilty of those kind of crimes would be disappeared to Persephone, which is a secret facility. Also, I'm sure there was some kind of psychiatric facility for people with typical mental disorders (Rapture's a city intended to last, eventually they'd need to treat an aging population approaching senility) like dealing with the lack of sunlight or a mental breakdown from the hectic Raptrue lifestyle. Persephone CAN'T be the end all Jail, Prison, Asylum of Rapture.

I don't need hidden diaries of people (to use your words) being 1984'd. There are plenty provided:

• When Grace Holloway is talking about James in Disappeared: "now it's like he never even came to Rapture."

• When Gloria Parson is talking about Harold in Where has Harry Gone?: "Just never came home! I went by the bookstore and all his books are gone too."

• To quote Sander Cohen in The Doubters: "Yes, there's blood in the streets. Yes, people sometimes... disappear. And those awful little girls…"

• To quote Charles Milton Porter in Rapture Departure Protocol: "Well, Thinker... Ryan's secret police are on their way. They cooked up some kind of evidence against me -- "treason", they say. I've heard what happens to folks who get disappeared."

Louie McGraff, as the violent criminal (though really, all we KNOW is that he was sent for smuggling AKA not specifically a violent crime), is in the minority of Persephone's known-of inhabitants.

Are you still going on about the statues on the front of Persephone? First of all, it's an aesthetic choice by the developers. If that doesn't satisfy you, please see the following: http://www.criminaljusticedegreehub.com/top-10-most-beautiful-prisons-in-the-world/

Also this: http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/slaughterhouse-number

The second link shows Mataderos (slaughterhouses). Why would something like an abattoir need to be designed in gorgeous Art Deco? To impress the cows? No, it's because the architct has principles. Just because something isn't beautiful doesn't mean that the people who build it can't design it to be. Maybe the people who built the facility just built a general purpose building (unaware it'd be finished as a penal colony) and then a specific group added the iron bars, clinical tiles, and padded cells.

YES, I have been critical of this game series' flaws, but I don't continuously pick at it to the point where it sounds like I only have negative things to say in front of people who REALLY like this game. And when someone offers a potential explanation to my criticisms (like when Pauolo showed how BAS didn't entirely retcon Bio2) I take it under consideration that I may have been mistaken.

Yeah, cause that quote can ONLY be used for one sprcific instance.

Do your really think the designers are checking this site for user comments and suggestions? Really? This Wiki was up and running all throughout the production of Infinite and if they were listening to us, I'd like to imagine that there wouldn't have been as many continuity slip ups as there were.

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but I don't think they care/know about this Wiki or the fact that it'd be a perfect continuity checker. If you want to seriously effect change, find out who's in charge of the next game and mail them the issues that need addressing (or publish them in a periodical of higher standing than a Wiki) cause I doubt they'll come looking for them.

God damn that was long!

Unownshipper (talk) 09:21, August 9, 2014 (UTC)