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IP Pondering[]
Wow 0.0 Wtf is THAT?! Theories on what it is? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.51.58.1 (talk • contribs) 15:17, 12 September 2010 (EST). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.
- A Big Daddy on Red Bull! LOL Charly Cohen 22:59, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
- I couldn't stop laughing for a moment ^^ --Pauolo 19:33, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
his sound[]
In the Demo, he sounds like a Big Daddy. ŖЁĠͧŤ3ŔΣĎ ₵ΘИ†®|฿ŪŢÖṜHi 23:12, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
- I wrote down the same thing for my plot description of the gameplay demo. Two possibilities, in my mind. One: Irrational has no sound to give him at this time and has recycled an old big daddy groan or Two: he is some sort of inspiration for big daddies.Misterkhalil 20:11, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Big Daddy sounds are reminiscent of whale calls, as I've heard from an interview. It's their sound for a big hulking creature. Just because another big hulking creature in the series produces a big low noise like expected doesn't somehow make it recycle sound from Big Daddies. Especially if that article here is true, and this game has already been in the works for two and a half years. ~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 20:15, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
Photo[]
I have another image of Him from the Game Informer Magazine, and it has a close up on Him. Would someone kindly upload it for me? Im not good at doing uploading photos on articles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Charly Cohen (talk • contribs) 23:17, 2010 September 21 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~.
On relations between Him and Big Daddies[]
The GameInformer article states, time and time again, how this guy is trying to put off from the comparisons like your making. To pull out these minor similarities you find, especially saying that they make the exact same noise when all it is is a ghostly moan which any scary creature can make, is really frustrating to me.
I'm putting this here for anyone else who feels the same. ~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 19:11, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- I thougt it was valid to establish a similarity there because there are so many things in common (especially since the noise Him and the Big Daddies make isn't just similar, it's exactly the same) there's no way it can be on purpose. Once we get more data, we can put it in and let the reader see for themselves that Him is unique in such and such aspects. --Willbachbakal 19:55, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't get where you're sourcing that they literally use the same sound files for their noises, but you can't just say it is. I listened to the video before coming on here, and I understand it sounds like a big monster noise, but it's not EXACTLY the same.
- But even more so, show me a few times on this wiki where we have trivias just for comparisons of two things through opinion or what may be coincidental in some way? ~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 20:09, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- In my opinion, as well as anyone who has ever played BioShock a few times (or ever) that was a Big Daddy moan. Since the only people who are going to be watching the demo are fans like us anyways, Irrational probably put that in there recognizing that it was the same sound.
- You honestly think the similarity never crossed Irrational's mind?Misterkhalil 20:14, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, but you're preaching it like it's some fact and not your personal opinion. Let them state things. Even so, it is extremely trivial to even mention it. More so than is usually allowed. ~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 20:17, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- The Wrench trivia article references System Shock 2, which isn't the same IP. There's even an entire section devoted to that game on this wiki. If we can reference something that's not even in the same franchise, why can't we do it for two characters in the BioShock series? It can also be pointed out that what I said wasn't opinion. Him does guard Elizabeth, who does love him (or, at least according to your own GameInformer article), he does have portholes for eyes and he is a giant destructive guardian-type thing. It's not like I pulled false or nonexistent info out of my sleeve.
- Also, it is not trivial to reference such a fact, let alone a whole bunch of obvious similarities. If you can prove that Him sounding like a Big Daddy, acting like a Big Daddy and somewhat looking like a Big Daddy somehow doesn't make him in any way similar to a Big Daddy, then you'd be right. There is no opinion here, just cold hard facts. If you're not convinced, play Him's roar and a Big Daddy roar simultaneously. --Willbachbakal 20:22, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- That Wrench trivial should probably be removed. The other page you cited says, in it is own name, that it is for references. And at least a few of those have some confirmation from the developers. Yes, those are facts. My problem is you are telling the reader to connect them. That is not what the trivia section is about. I am not saying they aren't similar, but it is not something you would put into trivia about. ~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 20:39, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
Alright, how about this: I show you an object that, for all intents and purposes, looks like an apple. It's got the same size as an apple, the same smooth green skin, and the same general feel. You bite into it, and it tastes like an apple. Beforehand, you knew that I plucked the object from an apple tree. Despite all this, I tell you it's not an apple. Are you really going to believe me?
What I'm trying to explain is this: if there were only one highly superfluous coincidental similarity (if, for example, those tubes on Him looked a bit like a Big Daddy's air tubes, which is actually the case) with something outside of the wikia's subject, then it's obviously not worth mentioning. However, not only are we talking about a similarity within the BioShock franchise, it's a whole bunch of pertinent and easily observable resemblances. Ergo, it deserves trivia space. Even if the developers were to state that this was only a temporary build for Him, and that he'd be radically different in sound, appearance and background in the real game, then it would still stay, with the only difference that it would be marked as specific to the game demo. Either way, it stays. --Willbachbakal 20:52, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Willbachbakal is right about comparisons being alright as long as there is significant reason to believe the developers did it intentionally. It is well known that Irrational repeats certain elements in their 'Shock games: crumbling utopias, code sequences, plot elements etc. It isn't a stretch to say Him's "eyes" and voice are similar to a Big Daddy's. My opinion is that Irrational kept the similarities intentionally in this Demo because they knew BioShock fans would be watching and they wanted it to be a sort of wink to the previous game.
- I agree that it feels wrong to point out the similarities when Irrational has been repeating over and over that BioShock Infinite is something new, and that there will be no "Big Daddy" in this game. I hope that Him will be much more unique in the game and that any similarities will be more subtle than they seem now.
- That said, the similarity can't be accidental, so in my opinion the comparison can stay. ~Gardimuer { ʈalk } 20:59, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- My point is it seems too trivial to be in a trivial list on the page, but I give up.
- it. ~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 21:08, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- BioShock Wiki:Trivia Policy: "What is trivia?" :P ~Gardimuer { ʈalk } 21:10, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
Weird Name, Weird Sentences[]
For the grammar nuts out there: don't you think having a character called Him makes some of the sentences in the article sound a little... strange? I mean, "Him is this, Him guards Elizabeth, Him's wings..." sounds plain wrong, even if it's grammatically correct in this context. --Willbachbakal 22:04, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Until such time another name is given, if there will be another name given somehow, this is most appropriate. No matter how strange it sounds. A name is a name, after all. ~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 22:20, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Plus, even Ken Levine uses the name during both Game Informer's article about the game, and the site's behind-the-scenes video on the covers. I know it's difficult to work grammar into the name, especially since I was the one that first created Him's page, but that's the only name that's given. The only variation I use to refer Him is "the creature", just to be less repetitive with the name while writing sentences. To me, I think they intentionally used the name like that to give the impression that the citizens are so freaked out, it's the one thing they can say before they get killed. Him's a weird name, but then again, it was weird in the beginning to hear names like Big Daddy, Little Sister, Ducky, Crawler, etc. Like MegaScience says, a name is a name after all. Evans0305 22:49, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Wait, wait, you got me all wrong. I don't want to change Him's name (especially since it probably is his true name), I just wanted to know if you found sentence construction somewhat awkward in this article. --Willbachbakal 06:49, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
Possible Origins[]
OK, so if Him was created solely to guard Elizabeth, who was it that built Him? Personally, my theory is that Him was created by the ruling party of Columbia around the time when the Vox Populi began to make trouble. The ruling party knew that the Vox Populi would go after Elizabeth because of her powers, so the ruling party created Him in order to guard Elizabeth and keep the scales evenly balanced (Elizabeth is the trump card). I mean, if someone was able to build an entire city in the sky, it shouldn't be too hard to build something like Him, should it? And that's another reason why I think Him was built by the ruling party: the ruling party likely has at least some of the government officials responsible for the creation of Columbia. Him is probably only one of the many examples of Columbia being a "Death Star", as Levine put it. Thoughts? Key of Destiny 18:17, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
You're most likely right about Him being created by the ruling party. I wonder who Him is, though, if there even is someone inside that thing. Imo, Elizabeth is most likely the "superweapon" on Columbia, what with her incredible powers and her being coveted by every power-hungry faction in the city. --Willbachbakal 22:21, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
It's also possible that the Songbird wasn't really created, but rather taken from another universe through a tear.Art Dent 13:23, July 17, 2011 (UTC)
- What a Beautiful answer. This might be the right one :)71.135.98.77 03:15, March 18, 2013 (UTC)
- What if Songbird was created using the Big Daddy technology? I wouldn't put it past Comstock if he decided to borrow a few notes from Andrew Ryan in his work to create a better Columbia. Hell, maybe "Vigors" are actually Plasmids stolen from Rapture and rebranded. Think about that.
Songbird?[]
OK, kind of an odd name, but after "Big Daddy", I'm just going to go with it. What I'd like to know is where it was confirmed that Him's real name is Songbird. I didn't see anything like "it was confirmed by So-and-So..." on the main page. Key of Destiny 13:12, May 24, 2011 (UTC)
- After the move, among the other new additions to the Wiki, I looked up the name on Google. It's the confirmed name from some interview. I've been to busy to run through it, but everywhere is saying it. Personally, I liked "Him" better, too, but I can see why they'd want to avoid confusion in conversation. I don't think they ever did say against that name, either. Hopefully I'll be able to read around and help with the additions sometime. ~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk } 17:11, May 24, 2011 (UTC)
K, thanks; just wanted to confirm whether it's official name or not. Key of Destiny 15:07, May 25, 2011 (UTC)
To Kill or Not to Kill..[]
...that is the question?JKeil 05:42, August 18, 2011 (UTC)
Well for a bit of a motor boat from Elizabeth, if you get what I mean, you might keep him alive71.135.98.77 03:11, March 18, 2013 (UTC)
Damn, after finishing the game, I guess it's better to just disregard that... 98.210.113.156 01:26, April 4, 2013 (UTC)
Man, machine, or...?[]
Songbird, Songbird. From what we can see so far, he can think for himself and seems to display emotion, as well as reasoning. So this begs the question... Is Songbird a giant evil bird-bot, or a cyborg?
Stay with me on this one. a "Cyborg" is any creature with body parts replaced by mechanical parts. I know, Songbird is giant and... Flies... But maybe he is a heavily modified human being with just say his mind effed up but intact enough to make coherant thought. Also, he could be grafted in his Songbird gear, just like Big Daddy. user:Mr Bio Shock 02:01, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
Songbird's Screech in BioShock 1 or 2[]
In BioShock, an ambient noise occurring prior to Kyle Fitzpatrick's death bears a strong resemblance to Songbird's screams.[1][03:35, April 3, 2013 (UTC)]
- Critics have stated that this sound happens as an ambient noise in Fort Frolic. It can be heard during the death scene of Fitzpatrick and then later in the same level after this scene.
- The same ambient noise can be heard in the Fontaine Futuristics building in Bioshock 2
(The above trivia was removed from the article.)
In case anyone disagrees with the ambient noise solution, both games were made long before BioShock Infinite was even thought up so ask yourself how could the creators have put the sound effect in those levels when the Songbird hadn't even been thought up?
I have played the first Bioshock multiple times, and have always wondered what that shriek was. Yes, it was an ambient noise, used to heighten the fear of the area. It also occurs when exploring Artemis Suites, as I recall. Key of Destiny (talk) 12:18, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
If you listen very closely, you can actually also hear that exact same screeching noise in the Comstock Center Rooftops level, so it is most likely just a random ambient sound that happens to sound a bit like Songbird's call.Cookiesandbeer12 (talk) 18:48, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
Songbird Siren Call[]
If anyone is interested, the notes for his "call" are ACACAGAF CFGAGFCCC, ACACAGAF. CFGACAGF. BillStef (talk) 04:16, June 13, 2013 (UTC)
So it's not actually CAGE, as I suspected.Einsteinium99 (talk) 05:56, June 13, 2013 (UTC)
- Well, CAGE are the notes they use to get the Songbird to work with them at the end, the notes you hear the rest of the game, for example when you first meet Elizabeth, are the ones listed above, or at least something very similar to them. BillStef (talk) 11:44, June 13, 2013 (UTC)
Songbird screech[]
Look dude sonbird's screeh actually was heard in bioshock 1 and also It has kyle fitspatrick a refference from songibrd and a screeh dosne't sound like a hich pitch mechanical camara.Gamma Venom 567 (talk) 20:41, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
Bioshock 1 Poster[]
While replaying the original Bioshock recently, I noticed this poster in Fort Frolic.
Its probably just a coincidence, but has the word songbird on it.
- It's not the same "songbird"; the term "songbird" is used to describe Cohen's method of defending Andrew Ryan's policies with his song. The creature Songbird in Infinite is called as such because it's a bird that responds to song. Key of Destiny (talk) 14:53, August 4, 2013 (UTC)
- It looks like there actually was some relationship here. The songbird referred to in the Bioshock 1 poster is actually Elizabeth, according to this poster found in Beyond the Sea: Episode 2. Zman0900 (talk) 04:45, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
- No, the songbird mentioned in the Bioshock 1 poster is Cohen (Anna Culpepper is using the term as an insult), the one in the Burial at Sea poster is Elizabeth. 46.7.95.98 22:54, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
Disappointing?[]
As much as I love the final version of Infinite, and keep coming back for more and more just as with the previous games, was anybody else "disappointed" with Songbird? They kept him as an integral part of the story, and that's wonderful, but you never actually get to engage him – combat or otherwise – and the instances where he does appear seem to be few and far between.
I know all the games went through drastic changes before they were released, but I was really looking forward to the whole "he can attack at any moment" concept and how your tactics of engaging him would have affected the relationship between Booker and Elizabeth.
I'm sure there are hundreds of explanations for why this change was made, one probably being they felt that, just as with the original Big Sister in BioShock 2, players wouldn't want to fight a character over and over again if they knew they couldn't actually "beat" him/her. That being said, a number of games have employed the same boss-type character(s) at multiple points throughout the course of their storylines, such as having to fight Alduin twice in Skyrim.
Anyway, I just wanted to see if anyone else had a similar feeling about Songbird's role in the version of Infinite that we were finally given to play.AShock0831 (talk) 17:03, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
I totally agree. Songbird was a failure. I mean, when he attacks Booker and Elizabeth in the First Lady, where does he go? Why doesn't he relentlessly hunt them down? He pops up, then disappears for no reason.Einsteinium99 (talk) 18:09, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't necessarily call Songbird a "failure"; even after playing through the game so many times, those moments he shows up out of nowhere continue to catch me off-guard. Especially that first time, after escaping Monument Island, where he goes after you in the water...just a wonderfully terrifying ending to an awesome soundtrack. Regarding that part where he goes after the First Lady: Comstock didn't want to kill Elizabeth, he wanted to capture her. Therefore, Songbird wasn't going to just rip the airship to shreds; heck, Elizabeth and Booker were lucky to be alive even with just that minimal amount of damage. Though I admit, I was also slightly disappointed with how Songbird was relegated to something of a flying plot device. It was done well, sure, but that's still what he was. Key of Destiny (talk) 14:08, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
I don't think he was an outright failure, and he is certainly intimidating when he does show up, even if it is predominantly in cutscenes. I just feel like he lost a bit of the original epic edge that had been proposed to us. I also remember an NPC in Battleship Bay commenting "Where was Songbird in all this?" and I kind of find myself asking the same question at times... Where does he go if he is supposedly hunting Booker and Elizabeth down to recapture her this entire time? Perhaps he constantly goes back to Comstock House for maintenance and new orders, as it seems we are expected to believe, but I could only see that being plausible after the intial escape from Monument Island where he takes some fairly severe damage trying to plunge after Booker.
I guess I envisioned a more King Kong-esque pursuit, where the only thing stopping him from getting to you would be underground passageways and such. Again, I just wish we would have gotten a chance to take him on as a true enemy, with maybe the option of either fighting back until he is forced to retreat or seeking shelter and trying to creep past his gaze, in order to add variety and storyline paths. Obviously the issue there would have been spacing out the attacks so as to not make them a constant hassle for the player. But even just one epic boss fight would have helped him live up to the massive expectations they built up for the character, in my opinion.
67.212.96.198 01:10, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
Well, I think what the NPC meant was "why didn't Songbird stop Monument Island from being severely damaged?" The answer, of course, was that Songbird was busy tearing up the place in a (ultimately futile) attempt to stop Booker and Elizabeth from escaping. He could have gone back to Comstock House for repairs, but if you remember, before the ambush the ticket vendor is talking to someone (likely either Comstock or a police captain) on the phone, and he says "send in the bird". So, Songbird may have shown up again at Battleship Bay had Booker not interrupted the ticket vendor. Also, Songbird is seen again at Soldier's Field, when Elizabeth opens a tear using a Songbird poster. How the big guy got there is anybody's guess. Key of Destiny (talk) 14:23, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
All supposition - Design section should not say it resulted from 'Big Daddy'[]
"
suggesting Fink had witnessed a design sheet for a Big Daddy. It is unknown how similar the Songbird's physiology really is to Big Daddies, as the details for the Songbird's creation are never given. It is possible that the Songbird was merely inspired by the Big Daddies, but doesn't have many internal similarities. The subject used for Songbird's creation followed a process similar to the Big Daddies' bonding procedure, as it was engineered to be fiercely protective of its ward.
"
Where anywhere in the game does it say anything like this ?? "It is possible" is not enough - its possible it came from a glimps of teh the planet Vulcan also or a passing Borg ship. or a godzilla movie.
'it is suggested" ?? Where is it suggested that its from Rapture ??? Put this in some 'Supposition' section, not in a declaration of 'Design'.
Testxyz (talk) 08:07, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
Songbird is a 60-foot winged creature or construct ???[]
60 foot tall or 60 foot wingspan ? (60 foot tall would mean something like 120 foot wingspan (and that getting a bit silly).)
Was this mentioned anywhere (the 60 foot number) ??
For a comparison big Tyranosaurus were about 18 feet tall (40 feet long)
Testxyz (talk) 08:38, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
Songbird Most Feared ...[]
Two words '"Giant Pidgeon" ...
Testxyz (talk) 05:32, October 27, 2013 (UTC)
"Crushed to death by the pressure of the ocean, Songbird accepts its fate as Elizabeth comforts it in its final moments." Crushed flat as a pancake in about 1/10th of a second after appearing (thru a tear --oops water surging opposite way thru that big songbird sized tear at 280lb/square inch - enough to wash awaay and obliterate several large sections of columbia...)
Testxyz (talk) 17:48, November 16, 2013 (UTC)
"at when she was just a child, Songbird had crashed into her tower, causing the tube to its oxygen supply to disconnect. After Elizabeth helped him out by reconnecting the tube, he offered his friendship to her."[]
This revised plot stuff is just getting sad...
Burial at Sea 2.[]
So Songbird was in burial at sea so the sounds from Bioshock 1 and 2 where not random so Songbird during Bioshock 1 and burial pretty much confirmed it.Gamma Venom 567 (talk) 20:27, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
Where was Songbird when the Vox were taking over Columbia[]
in dimension 17 3rd from the left that Booker and Elizabeth go to ?
Songbird was supposed to be so powerful (and since Booker wasnt supposed to be able to harm it, likely neither could the Vox ? ) then shouldn't it have been able to prevent what happened in that dimension ?
Booker in that dimension (the dead one) figured out how to poison its birdseed ?
- Probably busy looking for Elizabeth. Songbird would destroy anyone who attacked him, but likely ignored the Vox otherwise. His main task was to guard Elizabeth and until he found her all other concerns would have been secondary. After he recovered Elizabeth at Comstock House and Booker was missing for 6 months, Comstock probably didn't want Songbird to far away in case Booker showed back up. Likely he was just protecting Comstock House at that time. --Solarmech (talk) 20:07, July 22, 2014 (UTC)
- -
- We saw that it could be commanded for specific actions (the big battle at the end of the game), so even just borrowing it for awhile. Everytime the vox got a vehicle, Comstock could have sent the birdy to destroy it, giving his forces a big advantage. Another idea might have been why wasnt Fink then making more of them?
Songbird in BaSPt2?[]
Where does Songbird appear in Ep2? And early version of him and we see a movie, but he doesn't actually show up. Should he be listed? sm --Solarmech (talk) 16:09, August 1, 2016 (UTC)
- There's also a prototype head and upper body placed in front of a projector in order to "indoctrinate" it, so I think it's ok to leave it there, but I'll defer to your opinion. TheLighthouse (talk) 12:46, August 16, 2016 (UTC)
- I too am unconvinced on whether that counts as an appearance. It certainly warrants the Burial at Sea - Episode 2 game icon, but I don't know if we'd count the above to examples as official "Appearances."
- Unownshipper (talk) 16:54, August 16, 2016 (UTC)
- Even if that prototype in Fink's lab isn't technically Songbird, the footage of him bonding with Elizabeth still counts as an appearance. (186.29.153.6 16:56, August 16, 2016 (UTC))
References[]
Who?[]
Do we have any facts on who Songbird was before he turned into a mechanized bird-like diehard protector?
Pugsnstuf (talk) 02:07, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
To the best of my knowledge, we have no leads concerning this aspect of our avian antagonist. Theories abound as to whether this was Booker DeWitt from one of the 122 times in which he failed to save Elizabeth, Jack Ryan, or Subject Delta. At any rate, I would venture that it would be logical to conclude that the "human" aspects on display are quite minimal given both the size of the creature and the model of Songbird's head in Fink's Laboratories in BaS2. Perhaps this means that the human part is limited to a brain (or a part of a brain) rather than a whole body, which could have been gotten from anyone, but I digress. To return to the actual question, many theories, but nothing is for certain.
TheLighthouse (talk) 02:36, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Now this is epic. Thanks for your response my friend.
Pugsnstuf (talk) 02:39, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
No problem! Glad that there is still conversation going on after 7 years lol! Now I just feel old... Take care, and share your findings if you dig up anything!
TheLighthouse (talk) 02:50, 14 March 2021 (UTC)